Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waterbear
A few thoughts:
50 ppm borate is fine in my opinion.
Thanks.
Quote:
A cheaper source of borax is 20 mule team borax from the grocery. It's the same stuff except that it is the decahydraate form (it has 10 water molecules attached instead of 5) so you need a bit more by weight for the same borate level (60 oz by weight will raise 1000 gallons 50 ppm and needs abut 30 fluid oz of muriatic acid to keep the pH in line. The pentahydrate form requires about 45 oz by weight and the amount of acid to achieve 50 ppm rise in borate in 1000 gallons while using boric acid requres about 38 oz by wieght and will very slightly lower the pH but this is not a concern since it will rise on it's own as CO2 outgasses.)
If you want a pH neutral borate souce that is available commercially then Proteam Supreme Plus is the product you want. Proteam Supreme is exactly the same at Bioguard Optimzer (sodium tetraborate pentahydrate). The Supreme Plus is a mix of boric and and the pentahydrate form of borax to make it pH neutral. However, all the commercial forms of borax are MUCH more expensive than 20 mule team borax from the grocery store.
Great information. Regarding cost, the last time I bought BioGuard Optimizer, spring 2011, I paid about $40 for a 20# bucket, so about $2/lb. A quick check online showed 20 Mule Team Borax close to that, about $1.70/lb. So I really didn't pay much more, perhaps about even or less when you consider you don't need as much to achieve the same borate level. That said, I just did a quick online check for Optimizer and found a 20# bucket running about $60. Not sure why I got it so much cheaper at a local pool store last year. Out of curiosity I'll call them tomorrow and see what they currently charge. If it has gone up alot, then I'll switch to borax. I also did an online check for boric acid and it was very expensive, so that option is out (it would be nice not to have to add so much acid). Proteam Supreme Plus also looks to be very expensive.
Quote:
The main reason to use sodium hypochlorite (particularly since you have a vinyl liner) is that calcium hypochlorite is slow dissolving and can bleach the liner if it falls on it undissolved. Also, Sodium hypochlorite is what the salt cell is is actually making. As far as worrying about the 'freshness of the bleach" it's really a moot point. Unless you are buying it at a discount store or dollar store it's probably fresh. Walmart has a big turnover so it's a good place to buy it. If they sell pool chlorine in refillable carboys in your area that is often the best deal. Just buy enough for shocking and don't stockpile it so it does not stick around for more than a month or two before getting refilled. One gallon of 12.5% pool chlorine will raise you pool about 6 ppm, btw, so a 2 1/2 gallon carboy should be just about right for shocking your 22000 gal pool (or 5 gallons of 6% laundry bleach). If you use cal hypo predissolve it first. You do not want undissolved cal hypo going through the salt cell or falling on your liner.
Understood. I don't put dry cal hypo directly in the pool; I've always pre-dissolved it in a bucket then put it in the pool. Using this method I've not had any issues with the liner. I'll have to check local prices for bleach. Locally I pay $2/lb for 68% cal hypo. I buy it by the bucket, 40-50lbs, instead of by the 1lb bag which is much more expensive.
Quote:
As far as your metal problem, Were the stains brown (iron)? Do you fill with well water? What kind of salt do you use? I have seen some fine crystal "pool salts" that have caused iron staining which is why I recommend using solar water softener salt (The larger crystals do not need anti caking agents). I suspect that anti caking agents are sometimes added to the fine crystal pool salt or they are using food salt (which also contains anti caking agents) and repackaging it. Yellow prussiate of soda (sodium ferrocynaide, an iron salt) is used as an anti caking agent in food salt.
Yes, the stains were brown and disappeared almost instantly when ascorbic acid was applied. We are on city water which comes from a reservoir, not wells. I use "pool salt" from the pool store. I was told it has no anti caking agents. There was nothing on the label to indicate either way, so perhaps it did have some kind of additive? During my first season with the pool, I tried using solar water softener salt (how pure is it?) but the large crystals took so long to dissolve it was very time consuming and a pain to add salt. I did notice that this year my pool store is selling a different brand of pool salt. The brand is Aqua Salt ( http://www.aquasalt.com/aquasalt/web...t_overview.htm ). I just took a look at the bag and just noticed it says "Enhanced with a natural stain fighter". Is this a bad thing? Or would using this salt eliminate the need for the Purple Stuff?
That brings up a question. Let's assume that the salt I've been using does have an additive that's introducing iron to the water and in turn is the cause of the stains. As I understand it, Jack's Magic Purple Stuff is a sequestering agent that keeps the metals in suspension. The manufacturer says it allows the filter to remove the metal, but I read that it merely keeps the metal from coming out of suspension and attaching to surfaces such as the steps and liner. Please correct me if I have this wrong. So if the metal is staying in the pool, is the only way I could get away from using the Purple Stuff is to do a complete water change and start over using solar salt, assuming it has no metals in it (do we know this?)?
If I could get to the point where I didn't need the polyquat and the Purple Stuff, that would save me about $400 a season (it cost about $200 for each per season). Up until now I've just accepted the extra expense because since adding them to my routine I've not had any algae problems or staining problems (note that I started using polyquat and borates about the same time, so I really can't say if the polyquat is making a significant difference).
Thanks again for the great feedback. This is very educational and helpful.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
+ Borax is about $0.65 - 0.75/lb at Walmart.
+ A "natural" stain fighter could be a chitin (shrimp shell) product OR it could be a mined ortho-phosphate. Better not.
+ Purple Stuff is one of 3 Jack's products that are HEDP, a chlorine resistant phosphonate. These eventually break down to ortho-phosphates and release the chelated metals.
+ There are 3 possible strategies for removing metals:
=> CuLater zeolite-like patented product. Maker *claims* that it will remove phosphonate chelated metals. Available from Amazon:1 ppm Culator, direct from Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
=> Flocculant use -- PAC (polyaluminum chloride) dosed slowly pre-filter should gradually remove metals.GLB Pool & Spa Products 71408 1-Quart Drop n' Vac Pool Water Clarifier @ Amazon
=> Oxidation onto the filter with calcium hypochlorite.
(I've done this myself, repeatedly. But it's method dependent and if you are not careful, can result in stains.)
OK. Those are the options, but each as problems.
CuLator is zero risk and very easy; you can use it simultaneously with HEDP, and (reportedly) remove the metals while still protecting your pool with HEDP, because (reportedly, again) the CuLator material has a higher affinity for the metals than HEDP. But, it's unproven, and intrinsically slow, since you must pass all of the pool water over this little baggie sitting in your skimmer. You'd probably want to use it UNDER a skimmer sock, like this:Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner
to keep from fouling it.
However, it's unproven. We think it probably works; but we're not sure how well, or what limitations may apply. Periodic's owner is a genuine PhD chemist but is playing things very close to the chest, and is really hoping to make a killing off his patent.
PAC should work, but will require regular attention to the filter, careful filter cleaning, and either many repeated small doses or jury rigged trickle feed into a skimmer.
Cal hypo oxidation onto the filter works, but is potentially dangerous (cal hypo does NOT play well other other chemicals - so NO feeders or devices or chemicals in the skimmer or the lines between the skimmer and the filter).
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
+ Borax is about $0.65 - 0.75/lb at Walmart.
Thanks. I'll check out the local prices here.
Quote:
+ A "natural" stain fighter could be a chitin (shrimp shell) product OR it could be a mined ortho-phosphate. Better not.
Sorry, are you saying I shouldn't use this brand of salt? What's the likely consequence of using it if it contains the things you mention? I've already used one 40lb bag of this in my pool. Am I likely to have some kind of problem? I bought 200lbs to have on hand for the season. Should I return it and go back to the brand I was using (I think they still carry it)?
Quote:
+ Purple Stuff is one of 3 Jack's products that are HEDP, a chlorine resistant phosphonate. These eventually break down to ortho-phosphates and release the chelated metals.
I guess this explains the need for a regular maintenance does (add 12 ounces a week works to maintain the recommended level). I did know it breaks down into some kind of phosphate, but I was told it's not the same kind of phosphate that algae feeds on. Is this correct?
Quote:
+ There are 3 possible strategies for removing metals:
=> CuLater zeolite-like patented product. Maker *claims* that it will remove phosphonate chelated metals. Available from Amazon:
1 ppm Culator, direct from Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
=> Flocculant use -- PAC (polyaluminum chloride) dosed slowly pre-filter should gradually remove metals.
GLB Pool & Spa Products 71408 1-Quart Drop n' Vac Pool Water Clarifier @ Amazon
=> Oxidation onto the filter with calcium hypochlorite.
(I've done this myself, repeatedly. But it's method dependent and if you are not careful, can result in stains.)
OK. Those are the options, but each as problems.
CuLator is zero risk and very easy; you can use it simultaneously with HEDP, and (reportedly) remove the metals while still protecting your pool with HEDP, because (reportedly, again) the CuLator material has a higher affinity for the metals than HEDP. But, it's unproven, and intrinsically slow, since you must pass all of the pool water over this little baggie sitting in your skimmer. You'd probably want to use it UNDER a skimmer sock, like this:
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner
to keep from fouling it.
However, it's unproven. We think it probably works; but we're not sure how well, or what limitations may apply. Periodic's owner is a genuine PhD chemist but is playing things very close to the chest, and is really hoping to make a killing off his patent.
PAC should work, but will require regular attention to the filter, careful filter cleaning, and either many repeated small doses or jury rigged trickle feed into a skimmer.
Cal hypo oxidation onto the filter works, but is potentially dangerous (cal hypo does NOT play well other other chemicals - so NO feeders or devices or chemicals in the skimmer or the lines between the skimmer and the filter).
Ugh........it almost sounds easier to just keep using the Purple Stuff. I've been using it for several seasons and haven't noticed any negative effects, well maybe a little to my wallet.
I'm curious about the cal hypo method. Could you elaborate?
Thanks.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Hi Jim;
The CuLater is as easy as it gets -- if it works.
The cal hypo method depends on simultaneously oxidizing the metals and precipitating calcium carbonate onto the filter to trap the metals. It will NOT work while you have functional levels of phosphonates in the water. It WILL make things go 'BOOM' if you have a feeder or something else that allows undissolved cal hypo to contact almost any other pool chemical.
One more point to consider: if you do have an input source of metals, the phosphonates will eventually fail. If you don't have an input source -- you may have ALREADY removed the metals, and don't actually need the phosphonates any longer.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
Hi Jim;
The CuLater is as easy as it gets -- if it works.
I did some searching on that product. Some of the reviews on Amazon indicates the manufacturer recommends replacing the product every couple weeks. That would make it twice as expensive or more, depending on the particular CuLater used, that what I'm using now. And if I am adding metals every time I add salt, then I would have to use the product on a continual basis which gets expensive really quick, much more so than I'm spending now.
Quote:
The cal hypo method depends on simultaneously oxidizing the metals and precipitating calcium carbonate onto the filter to trap the metals. It will NOT work while you have functional levels of phosphonates in the water. It WILL make things go 'BOOM' if you have a feeder or something else that allows undissolved cal hypo to contact almost any other pool chemical.
Sounds like that method is way above my skill/knowledge level, so I think I'll forget about that idea.
Quote:
One more point to consider: if you do have an input source of metals, the phosphonates will eventually fail. If you don't have an input source -- you may have ALREADY removed the metals, and don't actually need the phosphonates any longer.
That brings up a couple points where I remain unclear;
1. Is it true my SWCG is the cause of the problem, as I was told, by separating out the trace amounts of iron present in the salt? BTW, I have two coworkers who also use a SWCG (one has a vinyl pool like mine, and the other a fiberglass pool), and they both have the same issue, making me think the SWGC process may actually be the issue. Your thoughts?
2. Is the Purple Stuff actually allowing the filter to capture the metals as quoted here on their website "...The stain removers will lift the stain off the surface, but its The Blue, Pink, Purple, or Magenta Stuff that will remove the metals from the pool and into the filter..." so when I backwash I'm getting rid of the collected metal?
3. So if the salt is the source of metals and the chlorine generation process is separating it out so it can attach to the pool surfaces, are you saying the Purple Stuff at some point will stop working? Or am I likely removing the metals at a rate that will allow the Purple Stuff to keep working as long as I keep up with the maintenance doses?
Perhaps my next step should be to have my water tested for metals. Can I test for iron, copper, etc. myself, or should a have a pool store test it for me? Does the use of the Purple Stuff prevent getting accurate results?
Sorry for all the questions. I greatly appreciate all the help sorting this out.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JimK
Some of the reviews on Amazon indicates the manufacturer recommends replacing the product every couple weeks. That would make it twice as expensive or more, depending on the particular CuLater used, that what I'm using now..
Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.
Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.
However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.
What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.
Quote:
Can I test for iron, copper, etc. myself, or should a have a pool store test it for me? Does the use of the Purple Stuff prevent getting accurate results?
+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.
Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.
However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.
What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.
Not sure if I want to try an unproven product, but if I decide to try it, which one should I try that would give me the best chance of good results for the buck, 1ppm, 1.5ppm, or 4ppm? Would it make sense that the 4ppm one would last much longer than the 1ppm or 1.5ppm? BTW, according to their website, they recommend replacing it every month (perhaps the every two weeks recommendation in the Amazon reviews was for stain removal? Currently I have no stains). If what you said about lasting indefinitely (seems like at some point it would get saturated?) is correct, I'm wondering if I can get by with just using one per season. That would save me money over using the Purple Stuff.
Quote:
+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.
So it sounds like I may not be able to get accurate results regardless if I test myself (what kit would I need to buy?) or if I have a pool store do it. Might I at least be able to tell if I have any metals or not even if the actual level isn't clear?
Also, are you able to comment on these items I mentioned in my previous post?
1. Is it true my SWCG is the cause of the problem, as I was told, by separating out the trace amounts of iron present in the salt? BTW, I have two coworkers who also use a SWCG (one has a vinyl pool like mine, and the other a fiberglass pool), and they both have the same issue, making me think the SWGC process may actually be the issue. Your thoughts?
2. Is the Purple Stuff actually allowing the filter to capture the metals as quoted here on their website "...The stain removers will lift the stain off the surface, but its The Blue, Pink, Purple, or Magenta Stuff that will remove the metals from the pool and into the filter..." so when I backwash I'm getting rid of the collected metal?
3. So if the salt is the source of metals and the chlorine generation process is separating it out so it can attach to the pool surfaces, are you saying the Purple Stuff at some point will stop working? Or am I likely removing the metals at a rate that will allow the Purple Stuff to keep working as long as I keep up with the maintenance doses?
Thanks again!
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.
Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.
However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.
What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.
+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.
I stumbled across this thread discussing whether or not CuLator really works.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...e-quot-Product
Later in the thread the discussion turns to the idea that keeping calcium levels up may prevent staining. I believe the forum members discussing this have fiberglass pools, so I'm not sure if this also applies to vinyl pools.
Your thoughts on this are appreciated.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
A few observations:
a 4.75 lb box of borax is $2.99 at walmart, target, and the local grocery store.
SWCGs do not cause staining. However, if you do not watch your pH and allow it to spike that can cause staining (and is usually what DOES precipitate stains.) If you know of two other people near you that have similar problems it is either the salt they are using (not very pure) or it's your water. Even city water can have iron in it.
While solar salt might take a bit longer to dissolve compared to a fine grained pool salt it tends to be very pure and rarely causes staining problems. I have seen 'pool salt' sit on a a pool floor and leave a stain behind. I have never seen solar salt do that. The fact that a pool salt has to include a stain fighter should tell you something. My suspicion that the 'natural stain fighter' is citric acid since that is was is often included in water softener pellets to 'clean' the units. Your expensive pool salt might be no more that ground up water softener pellets.
HEDP does not allow a filter to filter out the metals but this claim is often made. It chemically 'deactivates' the metal ions so they become non reactive for a while. The metal stays in the water until you either replace the water or it drops out of solution as a stain. If the stain is on a filter medium it is possible to change the medium and remove the metal.
The phosphates created by the breakdown of metal sequestrant are exactly the same ones that are 'algae food' but high phosphate levels do not mean you will have algae and are often NOT the limiting factor. Algae also need nitrate. However, there is no easy way to remove nitrate from pool water other than replacement of the water so a profit cannot be made by selling a product as it can with so called phosphate removers.
Re: new salt chlorinator system
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waterbear
A few observations:
a 4.75 lb box of borax is $2.99 at walmart, target, and the local grocery store.
That's much lower than the what I found online. I'll have to check out the local stores next time I need some.
Quote:
SWCGs do not cause staining. However, if you do not watch your pH and allow it to spike that can cause staining (and is usually what DOES precipitate stains.) If you know of two other people near you that have similar problems it is either the salt they are using (not very pure) or it's your water. Even city water can have iron in it.
I do keep a close watch on PH (test at least every other day if not everyday) and I don't let it get above 7.8. Could there be short spikes in between? Seems like if short undetected spikes are occuring, that the staining would suddenly appear, but it doesn't. It happens gradually over time. (Note; as I mentioned earlier, I've not had any staining since adding The Purple Stuff to my maintenance routine several seasons ago.)
I know 6 people in my area that have pools including myself (5 vinyl, 1 fiberglass). Out of the 6, 3 of us use the same SWCG system (we had our pools installed within a couple years of each other) and the other 3 use traditional chlorination methods. Those of us who use a SWCG have had metal staining issues and the others have not (we are all on the same city water supply). This in combination with the fact that staining doesn't occur when the system isn't running (ie - during the winter) leads me to believe there must be something to what I was told, that the SWCG separates out the impurities in the salt (which is what I suspect is the source of iron). It's also interesting that our iron staining issue followed the same pattern; 1st season no staining, 2nd season occasional staining, 3rd season staining more frequent, and so on. Perhaps I am missing or misunderstanding something?
Quote:
While solar salt might take a bit longer to dissolve compared to a fine grained pool salt it tends to be very pure and rarely causes staining problems. I have seen 'pool salt' sit on a a pool floor and leave a stain behind. I have never seen solar salt do that. The fact that a pool salt has to include a stain fighter should tell you something. My suspicion that the 'natural stain fighter' is citric acid since that is was is often included in water softener pellets to 'clean' the units. Your expensive pool salt might be no more that ground up water softener pellets.
I have noticed that the label on the salt bags say they're 99.9% pure. Not sure if solar salt is more pure, or perhaps the pool salt has additives that aren't listed on the label? If the salt I currently have is using citric acid (ascorbic acid) then I'm fine with that. However, Ben mentioned it may contain "chitin (shrimp shell)" or "a mined ortho-phosphate" and seemed to suggest that I should avoid that. Perhaps I'll contact the manufacturer to see if they will tell me what they are using before I lug all that salt back to the store.
Quote:
HEDP does not allow a filter to filter out the metals but this claim is often made. It chemically 'deactivates' the metal ions so they become non reactive for a while. The metal stays in the water until you either replace the water or it drops out of solution as a stain. If the stain is on a filter medium it is possible to change the medium and remove the metal.
The phosphates created by the breakdown of metal sequestrant are exactly the same ones that are 'algae food' but high phosphate levels do not mean you will have algae and are often NOT the limiting factor. Algae also need nitrate. However, there is no easy way to remove nitrate from pool water other than replacement of the water so a profit cannot be made by selling a product as it can with so called phosphate removers.
That's what I remember reading somewhere before. In season 2 (2005) when I was having problems with the liner getting slick frequently despite FC being around 7, my pool store tested for phosphates and found they were high. He said with high phosphates algae will grow despite good FC levels. Ever since then I use a phosphate remover in my closing routine that comes with the closing kit for mesh cover users. I use a solid cover now (MUCH easier spring cleaning!), but still get the mesh cover kit and apply the phosphate remover at closing as a precaution.
I would like to check my water to see if I still have metals and still need the sequestrant (I've been using The Purple Stuff for several years now), but according to Ben, it's seems sequestrants may interfere with the test results. So I guess the only way to find out if I still have metals (likely if the source is the salt as I suspect) is to stop using the sequestrant and see if staining returns. However, I really don't want to do that as getting rid of the stains is a royal pain and expense.
All this discussion has been very interesting and educational, although sometimes confusing to me. Lately I've been thinking about my current routine and how it might be made cheaper and easier, if possible. It has taken me some years to come up with my current routing which is working very well for my pool (no more staining or algae issues; pool always looks great), so I may come across as a little reluctant to change, and perhaps I am. Sorting though a mountain of information, and misinformation (!), has been challenging.
In the end it seems I'm down to two potential areas that might help me reduce costs and associated questions I need to answer;
1. Stain control. Can I safely stop using the Purple Stuff, or will I always need some sort of stain control (my suspicion is I will)? If I need stain control, is their a better/less expensive way? Would using different brand of salt help?
2. Algae control. Can I stop using polyquat and just rely on borates and chlorine? Looks like switching from "Optimizer" to 20 Mule Team Borax would net some savings.
It may turn out that my current routine is best for my pool and I should just stick with it.
