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This is my first post and intended to "activate" my participation as suggested in the welcome email. I have found the "sticky note" on metal stains and appears to be just what I need.
ONE QUESTION: the ascorbic acid treatment appears less destructive of the plaster finish than a muriatic acid treatment/wash. Is this true?
Yes, much, much less damaging. And, probably a lot less expensive, too.
BUT . . . don't follow that process just yet. I've had a couple of unsuccessful results, and I need to work out a way to prevent that. I can tell you one change to the procedure will be "Get a K2006 and report your pH, TA, and CH" BEFORE you start!" We may need people to get a TH (total hardness test) as well.
Here's the kit information:
+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)
+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.
+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page )
One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.
+ Here are links to the kits we recommend (you can check local availability on the HTH kit, using the Walmart link):HTH 6-Way Test Kit @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) @ Amazon
Thanks for your reply. One comment disturbs me...the unsucessful results!
QUOTE..."BUT . . . don't follow that process just yet. I've had a couple of unsuccessful results, and I need to work out a way to prevent that. I can tell you one change to the procedure will be "Get a K2006 and report your pH, TA, and CH" BEFORE you start!" We may need people to get a TH (total hardness test) as well."...QUOTE
I have a 14 year old pool with a new 1 year old plaster finish. I've fought this problem for a few years and feel the treatments I've tried in the past contributed to the failure of the plaster.
The rest of the thread makes sense as I've experienced it all! It appears this has been a "solution' for some time as evidenced by the time/date tags. Why the misgivings now?
We're getting more consistent feed back, from people following the process as written. That makes it possible to more accurately evaluate how well it's working.
One of the big problems all of us have, is that WE don't have most of the problems users come here with -- we learned to avoid them, long ago. So, we have to rely on user feedback for more information. But pool owners are so used to failure with pool products and processes that they don't always tell us when something we've recommended doesn't work as we expect.
I'm hoping the new Pool Chart + the Pool Log (customized dosing calculator and test record for subscribers) will allow us to improve our advice a LOT, over the next year. It's probably already the best available, but it's a long way from perfect.
Can you please clarify!
Your post seems to be at odds with another moderator/administrator! The post I refer to is "Ascorbic treatment for stains" (original by mbar, posted by aylad, and updated by PoolDoc in 2012)
Yeah, I"m at odds with me.
I'd rather you NOT start the AA treatment till you have a K2006 and have reported accurate pH, TA, and CH measurements.
Thanks! Now i understand. Kit is on order but I also have the HTH 6 in 1 from Walmart!
I'm not quite ready anyway as most of the chemical tools haven't arrived.
Lemme know when you've got everything.
These may or may not be metal stains! Don't let me lead you astray!
Results of K-2006 tests:
FC - 2.4
CC - 0
pH - 7.4
TA - 110
CH - 430
CA - 135 (1:1 distilled water method)
One week ago I discontinued using dichlor granules and trichlor tablets. I now use liquid bleach.
History:
14 year old 17,400 gallon gunite pool/spa, DE filter (no heater bypass), with an 18 month old new plaster finish. I had this type staining before the new finish. I had mixed success with some products lightening or eliminating the stains before the new finish...always a metal stain remover product, but they returned over time. About 4-5 months after the new finish, staining creeped back in the pool over a 6 month period. On startup of the new finish, I was aggressive on adding an HEDP product (Metal Hold from Ram Chemicals, Houston, TX) which I believe is as good but cheaper than Jack's Magic and KemTek. I base this on conversation with the manufacturer and the recommended dosage; I was unable to determine the %HEDP.
My pool contractor led me to believe I had a problem called calcium carbonate hydration. I researched the problem and found others with the exact symptoms. I used a treatment method I obtained from a Jack's Magic rep (she said I had scale over metal staining) where you lower the chlorine to zero then add acid to drive th pH to below 7 (5 gallons for my pool) and 2 quarts of Metal Hold. The stains started disappearing after 48 hours and were mostly gone after 96 hours (pool eqipment OFF!). I brought the pH back to 7.4, restarted the filter, backwashed after 2 days, and gradually brought chlorine back to 3. This was in March 2012 when water temp was 70 degrees so algae was not a problem. I have been aggressive in adding Metal Hold weekly and when adding water from the city supply. I think I may have slowed the stain progression but am unsure. The stains started creeping back 3 months later as the water temp reached the 80's.I DO NOT want to repeat this treatment again as I feel it slightly diminished the quality of the plaster.
Observations:
The stains appear blotchy beige/brown. They started appearing in the shallow end (3 foot) at the curvature of the wall and floor and have progressed to the deep end (6 foot). Some staining also has occurred on the floor and to a lesser extent on the walls. A couple of months back I tried a brush on them with no effect. I then got very concientious on using Metal Hold at twice the mantenance dosage.
Today I donned a mask and weight belt to further investigate and experiment. I found I could use a stainless steel brush (very aggressively) and remove some of the top of the stain but no more. I used a teaspoon of ascorbic powder in a nylon stocking weighted over a stain which removed some of the stain (over time) but a shadowey outline remained. I used a squirt bottle with muriatic acid on a stain, wiped it immediately, and it floated off, again with a shadowey outline remaining. I rubbed a trichlor tablet on a stain then scrubbed with no effect.
The stains do not feel rough to the bare hand in some areas but slightly so in others. In some areas of the floor I feel tiny sharp pin prick protrusions that are not visibly noticeable. Looking around the pool underwater with a mask, I think I perceive widespread tiny pin points of staining that is not noticeable from above the surface.
Well, thats it! Suggestions please!
Suggestions?
1. Use the 10ml sample, with 1 drop equal 0.5 ppm chlorine, instead of the 25 ml sample. With the chlorine levels you need, using the 10 ml sample will save a lot of FAS drops!
2. Read the "Best Guess" page, linked in the blue signature block. It will explain recommended chlorine levels -- and why you need to follow those.
3. Can you take pictures?
Here are some reviews, if you don't have a camera:
2012 => http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-6501_7-57428068-95/
2011 => http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q311...mpactgrouptest
I've ordered a Pentax Optio WG-2 precisely because it is supposed to do very good macro, with some dedicated LED ring lights . . . but I don't have it yet.