Help with new portable 100K gal pool for swim meet
Hi - So we here in Grand Junction, CO are getting a small portable pool for a swim meet here in august, and I need some help with what kind of pump, heater, filter, and controller for the pool.
Its a 25 yard, 42" wide pool, 4 feet deep. Vinyl walls, with bottom inflow outlets, and spillover to circulate. About 100,000 gallons
I'm new to this as our current pool was built by a company out of Oregon. We were already looking at using a Pulsar 3 chlorination unit, as we could use it for spare parts for our other pulsar units, but I'm open to hear other ideas. The operation of the pool will ONLY be for about 14 days, 8 days to set up and fill, and heat, and then swimmers for 6 days.
We also already have a acid pump and co2 feeder.
Re: Help with New portable pool
Do you have control of the operation?
Assuming that the answer is yes, I'd go for a
+ ~300 gpm circulation system,
+ use multiple cartridge filters
+ use a single Pulsar unit to meet continuous feed requirements,
BUT
+ use dichlor initially to chlorinate AND establish a CYA residual;
+ use cal hypo granular to do nightly 'shocking', adding the cal hypo upstream of the pumps
+ use dichlor added to the circulation stream, as needed to maintain chlorine levels during the meet
+ let the pH drift within whatever range is allowed by code, but favor the high end.
+ keep a small drum of 1:2 muriatic to water with your acid pump. (This mix does NOT fume!)
+ use borax to raise pH (after initial dose)
+ EXPECT that optimized chlorination may NOT require any pH adjustment: do NOT over adjust.
To complete what I'll start below, I need to know
+ code requirements for circulation rates, FC range allowed, pH range allowed, alk & calcium requirements, and CYA range allowed
+ inlet connection layout on the pool (specs & drawings)
+ electrical power availabililty
Let's check volume: 75 * 42 * 4 * 7.48 = ~94,000 gallons (assuming spillover is @ 48")
So, your pool factor is 1.28; inverse factor is 0.78
You'll need to allow for 8 ppm chlorine per day + 4 ppm per day during non-use intervals, so
CHLORINE REQUIREMENTS:
(8 * 4 * 0.78) + (6 * 8 * 0.78) = 25 + 37 = 62# of chlorine gas equivalent
STABILIZER REQUIREMENTS
40 * 0.78 = 31# . . . IF you can get 100% dissolution
SODIUM BICARB REQUIREMENTS (80 ppm)
80 * 0.78 / 0.58 lbs CaCO3/lb NaHCO3 = 108# baking soda
(this will be reduced by fill water alkalinity!)
BORAX SUGGESTED (30 ppm) => 2 x 100# bags + 12 gallons of HCl to compensate (borax not essential, but helpful)
CALCIUM REQUIRED?
none! it's a vinyl pool . . . but find out if your inspector will give you grief. If so, add the minimum does to make him happy. If he's using strips be SURE you buy a K2006 to test with, and show him, up front. Best to have him watch you test with the K2006, than let him use guess-strips. I've repeatedly had to add chemicals to 'correct' spurious problems generated by the inspector's strips!
CIRCULATION:
assuming a 6-hour code requirement:
97,000 / 6 / 60 = 270 gpm or more.
FILTRATION:
assuming cartridges, given the circumstances. (sand would be a total pain to set up and take down; DE would probably require a separation pool)
filter rate; 0.375 gpm /sft => 270 / 0.375 = 720sft
PIPING:
(only a guess, without seeing the pool specs)
max flow in 2" PVC is about 60 GPM
[ http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documen...ech_Manual.pdf, ]
That means you EITHER have to go to 4" piping, possible with headers OR set up multiple 2" or 2.5" circuits. Before I look at that, why don't you post a link the pool specs.
PUMPS:
The Pentair Challenger HiFlo pumps have the best match to the low restriction piping layout you'll have. The nominal 5HP model (CFII-NI-5FE or ) is available in both 3 phase and single phase,
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/...w-pumps-23.htm
http://www.pentairpool.com/images/pr...wCurve_new.jpg
and will run on a 30A single phase, or 20A 3phase circuit. The WhisperFloXF pump would be another option.
If two of these pumps are matched with 2 cartridge filters each, like the CCP-320,
http://www.pentairpool.com/pool-pro/...filters-27.htm
you should get excellent filtration performance of well over 300 GPM, and at very reasonable cost.
. . . continued later . . .
Re: Help with New portable pool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mavswimmer
Its a 25 yard, 42" wide pool, 4 feet deep.
Wow! That's a pretty narrow pool! ;);)
Re: Help with New portable pool
He means, 42 feet -- probably 6 lanes.
Re: Help with New portable pool
I do have control of the operation, and we are working on getting plans of the pool. Most of what we know we learned in a twenty minute conference call yesterday.
The pool is 42 feet, 6 lanes.
Code Requirements:
Circulation is 6 hours, FC range is .25 to 5.0, with 1-3 ideal, pH range is 7.2 to 8, alk is 70-180, calcium we have to have a minimum of 150, but out fill water is about 120. CYA range is 20-100.
Our inspector uses a Palin Pool test, just like the one we own.
I will get the pool specs and drawings once Wyoming faxes them over.
Electrical power available is whatever is needed, we have two transformers near the pool, and our electrician is willing to wire what ever is needed.
As for a heater, what one would you recommend, our fill water will be about 46 degrees, and we plan on running the pool at 79 degrees. We have natural gas available at 3000 CFH.
Also, would it work to use regular cal-hypo in the pulsar, and supplement with a pulsar sunscreen? The reason I'm asking is that we already purchased 6,000 lbs cal-hypo briquettes, so that' not a problem.
Re: Help with New portable pool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mavswimmer
The pool is 42 feet, 6 lanes.
OK.
Quote:
Code Requirements:
+ Circulation is 6 hours,
+ FC range is .25 to 5.0, with 1-3 ideal,
+ pH range is 7.2 to 8,
+ alk is 70-180,
+ calcium we have to have a minimum of 150, but our fill water is about 120.
+ CYA range is 20-100.
No problems, then. All OK.
Quote:
Our inspector uses a Palin Pool test, just like the one we own.
You may want to get a Taylor K1515 for FAS-DPD chlorine testing. Actually, you should. You'll want to dose to 8 ppm at night, or as close to that as you can get, while being at 5.0 or under by warm-ups. This is one case where you'll need accurate testing, so you can calculate exact dosing.
You might want to explain what you're doing to your inspector; he may not have a problem with the 'slam it at night, so the DPB's can form, and dissipate by warm-ups'. If you do have a spill-over, you'll want to run as much spill as you can tolerate, and not have catch-basin overflow at warm-up. The extra aeration will strip most DPBs that will have formed as the high chlorine breaks down gook.
KEY POINT for minimizing DBPs:
Make SURE bathrooms are nearby and CLEAN. Competitive swimmers are accustoming to peeing in the pool, and if your bathrooms are not both close and clean, they will pee in the pool by PREFERENCE! Also, if you can arrange the schedule to force everyone out of the pool for even 3 minutes out of every hour, your pool pee load will drop a LOT!
If you are using Port-a-lets, arrange regular wash down with a hose, and MAKE SURE people SEE you doing it, so they know that the 'wet' on the floors is from your cleaning, rather than from someone 'missing'!
Coaches and pool operators tend to poo-poo this stuff, but it will make a HUGE difference.
Quote:
I will get the pool specs and drawings once Wyoming faxes them over.
Electrical power available is whatever is needed, we have two transformers near the pool, and our electrician is willing to wire what ever is needed.
Three phase, then. Check on motor starter requirements. You probably DO want motor protection -- you don't want to lose a pump during the meet.
Quote:
As for a heater, what one would you recommend, our fill water will be about 46 degrees, and we plan on running the pool at 79 degrees. We have natural gas available at 3000 CFH.
What will your ambient temps & humidity be (low, high, & relative humidity low & high)?
I need to see how the spillovers work -- if there's going to be a lot of evaporation, that will increase your heating need.
HOWEVER, there's a good chance you can use a single Hi-E 450,000 BTUH natural gas heater, which will give you
97,000 * 8.3 = ~800,000 lbs/water
450K * 85% eff = 380,000 BHUH
380/800 = 0.48 degree / hour with no heating demand
So . . . a 450K heater will give you a temp delta of about 1/3 degree F per hour, or 8 degrees per day . . . if the net heating demand is fairly low. Your INITIAL rate, with a water temp that is below the average, will be more like 12 degrees per day.
You can get a good estimate of what the heating demand will be by checking on what pool temps on unheated commercial outdoor pools are, in your area during a cold August.
For safety, you may need to go with (2) 450K heaters, one with each pump. Piping on these will be critical -- you can't put the whole flow through those heaters!
Quote:
Also, would it work to use regular cal-hypo in the pulsar, and supplement with a pulsar sunscreen? The reason I'm asking is that we already purchased 6,000 lbs cal-hypo briquettes, so that' not a problem.
Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it.
What I would recommend is buying (1) 50# bucket of dichlor at Sams Club and using it to get started. Then:
1. Install your Pulsar with a 1/2 - 3/4 HP pool pump. Do NOT put it into the main piping. Their venturi design KILLS hydraulic efficiency. If you are using this on your main pool you may -- literally -- be wasting $2,000 per year on electricity!
2. Set your Pulsar up.
3. Run the feed line to both pump suctions. You may be able to conveniently use the wet end drain for connection.
You only need a Pulsar 1, but will need to configure it for maximum feed.
By setting it up AHEAD of the pump and filter, you'll be doing yourself a big favor in both pool chemistry and water clarity. Can explain this later. However, operating in this manner, you may not need any calcium or alkalinity. Go ahead and give me full test results on the fill water.
(I'll send you a bill for my $500 consulting fee.;) )
Re: Help with New portable pool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
He means, 42 feet -- probably 6 lanes.
Duh! I know that. I was just being a smarty-pants!
Re: Help with New portable pool
I actually use a k-2006 taylor kit, and then supplement with a weekly test on the palin.
Also, when looking at the heaters, would you see it possible or reasonable to get a trash pump, and fill the portable pool with water from our large pool. That way the water would be closer to 80 degrees, and then getting one heater for the rest of the week?
Water from the fire hydrant, fill water, is actually now 52 degrees,
alk=90
cal=120
pH=7.9
Cl=.48
Re: Help with New portable pool
Hm-mh.
What I'd recommend is using the Hayward Super pump (which you'll need to run your Pulsar feeder!) to fill the portable. You can run the Hayward off a single 15A receptacle, with a 12 gauge 50' extension cord. You can use the dichlor during the fill period to keep the water chlorinated . . . and you'll have the CYA level you need, when you're done.
How far from the main pool, is the outdoor pool? Unless it's a really long way, you'll probably need a ball valve in the pump outlet, to allow you to introduce some flow resistance -- if you allow the pump to run wide open, with little resistance (2" pipe, no filter, no heater, etc.) you'll either (a) trip the outlet breaker OR (b) burn up the pump motor. If you get a Hayward SP2605X7 3/4 uprate, you should be able to run 50 gpm without overloading. That will allow you to fill in 32 hours.
It looks like your August typicals are 60/90, with lots of sun. Under those conditions maintaining temps above 79 shouldn't be a problem, unless you get LOT of wind at night. So, filling from the main pool likely would allow you to skip the heater. Certainly, one small heater would be enough to maintain the temps. You could actually run the heater AND the Pulsar off the SuperPump, allowing to avoid screwing up the hydraulics of the primary pumps.
Check with your electrician. It may be possible to install the SuperPump on the outdoor pool that way, too. I think you'll have to use a 20A locking receptable and matching plug, but that's not a big deal. You'd then need an adapter extension cord, with a standard 15 mail plug and an added 20A female, so you could use the completed pump temporarily to fill the pool, and then immediately move it into service on the pool itself.
By the way, you should check both FC and CC on your fill water -- you may be holding a higher monochloramine residual. If so, you'll need to plan to super-chlorinate to remove those residuals BEFORE swimmers get into the pool -- mono-chlor is pretty nasty on eyes. If you do have a significant chloramine residual, allow yourself 48 hours to clear it. Of course, if you use main pool water to fill, that may be another problem you'll avoid, since you have that UV reactor inline.
