Spring opening cloudy pool excessively high PH > 8.2

[JuJuBee]

Hi PoolDoc,

03May2012

We've been struggling with the new test kit and wacky results; almost out of titrant and the CYA test chems. Long story for another time because i have many questions about all that testing.

For now, today Pete got the first good results and we need to know how to proceed.
Tonight our FC=4.0; CC=2.0.
(which is weird because 6 days ago we had FC=.4 and CC=3.0 and since CYA was 30, we did a shock treatment of 7.5 pounds Bioguard Dichlor to bring the FC to 30ppm and the CC to 0.0 - Four hours later the Taylor kit reported FC as either 2.0 or 3.6 and CC as either 20ppm or 7.6. Wacky results - so the next day we took a sample to The Great Escape and their results showed FC=0.4 & CC=7.4 - their Hardness=699, Alkalinity=ERR HI >250, pH=7.9, CYA=30. But the Taylor kit showed our pH was 7.2 the two times we tested the night before.)

So, I put in a 2 lb. bottle of Bioguard Easy Shock that same day. On Monday our pool wasn't so cloudy anymore, Pete bought 4 gallons Muratic acid and added only one gallon so far. Our test results tonight are:

• FC 4.0 ppm
• CC 2.0 ppm
• pH < 7.0 (took 21 drops to get correct color for base demand)
• TA = 210
• CH = 250
• CYA = 50

Our question is related to your previous instructions. (steps 4 & 5 from your 5:48am reply on 4/18)

You have the Borate adjustment listed before the reduction of Alkalinity. But since we need to get our pH to below 7.0 to lower our Alky, and that's exactly what it is right now, shoud we do step 5 first? And then when we do the borates thingy, the acid used will benefit that second part of your Alky instructions?

Also, we have no idea what you mean by "aerate" in step 5.

We'll wait to hear from you. Btw, the water is clear now and no longer cloudy. Just high Alky and wacky readings.

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

It sounds like you closed with a definite stabilizer level, and opened with none?

Contrary to what most in the pool industry 'know', stabilizer can be 'eaten' over the winter by bacteria. When this happens, the bacteria 'poop' out either nitrogen gas (no problems!) or ammonia and possibly some other nitrogen compounds (BIG problems).

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.

Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA. If you have a bubbler or fountain attachment for your pool return, install it. If not, adjust your return so that the water flow is aimed at the surface, and 'ruffles' the water. The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page. But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly.

2. Use up all your dichlor products, starting with the Easy Shock.

3. Stop using the K-2006 for now. Use a K-1000 or a locally purchased OTO kit (this is explained on the test kit page in my signature). Maintain a dark yellow to orangish-yellow chlorine level, first with dichlor, and then with bleach. Add chlorine in the evening. Let levels drop to yellow / dark yellow before re-dosing.

4. If you are nearly out of R-0013 CYA reagent, you can order a pint bottle from Amazon (test kit page, again). If you need other refills, tell us what, and we can tell you how to get them. (But, use the OTO kit, for now.)

5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

[JuJuBee]

Hi there!

09 May 2012

Ok, we started aerating yesterday afternoon. We have a small fountain attachment that can connect to one of our return jets. We aimed the other two jets directly at the surface. You can see wavy ripples but it doesn't appear to reach the surface very well. The fountain is splashing air quite well. The filter is on a timer now because my husband is $$weary of it being run 24-7 since the middle of April.

We also did another superchlorination last night because our FC was 1.4 and our CC was 4.4. My calculations (if correct) showed I would need to bring my FC to at least 44ppm to break even?? So I went with 45. I didn't want to add too much dichlor as our CYA was brought to 52 already with that. I knew we could handle going up another 20 or 30 ppm but didn't want to chance having it higher than that. For that reason, in the evening, we added 30 ppm via our Bioguard Dichlor. I added the remaining 15ppm via 3 gallons of liquid bleach. My husband is frustrated because after all that, tonight our readings are pretty much the same or worse:

FC = 2.4
CC = 5.4
pH has now fallen below 7.0 even though we are aerating....
TA = 200 - the same as yesterday
I'm all out of CYA reagent so I can't test that anymore. We also are out of the R871 as of tonight.
I forgot you told us to stop using the K-2006 for now. That could be one of our problems. We'll test again with the OTO kit and get back to you on that reading. I also am keeping in mind to be patient waiting for the alkalinity to drop.

He just tested with two different OTO kits while I am typing. The Pentair 4-way shows TC = 3.0 ppm (a very dark yellow) and the HTH 6-way shows TC = 1.0 or 1.5 (a pale yellow) ????? We'll head out and buy a new kit. I can't stand not knowing the correct reading between three different kits. Is it 7.8, 3.0 or 1.5????

Also, we still have chlorine silk sticks in our inline feeder. Under the method you teach, we wouldn't need to use that anymore, correct? Should it be turned off now? It still has a few left in there and the dial has been set at about 2 1/2 all this time.

I don't know what to do about our CC level. Twice we have followed the instructions for breakpoint chlorination and neither time did it reduce the CC but rather increased it. I understand that if you do less than the breakpoint, it will increase. But either our test kit has been faulty from the start, or their breakpoint instructions of 10 times the CC is faulty. This is actually getting to be expensive. I think that's why he's frustrated. We only have 3 gallons of the liquid bleach left and Pete is putting that in right now. If we had more, we'd add it. He's getting another 7 gallons after his softball game tonight and will put it in when he gets home. I know you said dichlor first, then bleach, but I am holding off on adding anymore dichlor until hearing from you. I want to make sure it's not going to end up pushing our CYA into the toxic range of >= 100ppm with the excessive amounts we've added up until now.

On the bright side, (because there always is one if you're willing to notice it...), our water is probably more crystal clear than any water in the history of the world. (Once we got all the worms from the rain out....) It's quite pretty. Our kids are dying to swim in it because they don't believe it's not safe to, it sure looks safe to them and very inviting! heh heh. I'm comfortable with this method we're learning and I'm confident it will be the better way to take care of our pool from this year forward. I'm just still trying to "sell" the ideas to my husband because he's not as patient and the disagreeing test kits are making him skeptical. We've always been able to swim by now just using the chemicals we always have and the pool was pretty then too. I have to keep reminding him that "convenience" had a high cost to it AND had we had the proper breakpoint chlorination done upon opening our pool this year, which it obviously wasn't, it might not have taken this long.

He has one good question though: you said above,

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.

well, if our CYA was 30 for at least 2 weeks and just over 50 for a week now....why is our chlorine still disappearing so fast? I will, of course, re-read him the second part of your quote above and remind him there is no short cut.

Looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much!

[Watermom]

3 gallons of bleach would add 10ppm of chlorine, not 15ppm. How much dichlor did you add? What amount of chlorine does the package say that dose of dichlor will add to an 18K pool? By the way, if your CYA reading is already over 50, you don't want to use any more dichlor. Stick with bleach. Don't use your chlorinator right now. Besides the sticks are probably stabilized -- meaning they add more CYA. You don't need more.

It is a royal pain in the you-know-what to clean up a pool full of ammonia from CYA degradation. We see this every year. People who pour gallon upon gallon of bleach in their pools and they think the chlorine level never will hold! They get so frustrated!!! And, then one day, it holds! Hang in there!

[JuJuBee]

9 May 2012

Last week, we added 7.5 lbs. dichlor. I added 7.5 lbs. dichlor again last night. Glad I didn't use more tonight. I don't know what my CYA is after last night, I'm sure it's got to be close to 70 by now....

I'm calculating the amount of chlorine needed using "TABLE B" on page 54 of the Taylor Test Kit guide that came in the K2006 kit. It shows how much of a product to add to achieve 30ppm. My Dichlor is 55-56% available chlorine. I use the 60% row and subtract 2,000 gallon amounts from the 20,000 gallons amounts. Since my dichlor is 91% of "60%", I take 91% of that amount. It came out to 7.5 pounds of dichlor to add 30 ppm.

The 10% available row (liquid bleach) shows 6 gallons to add 30 ppm for a 20,000 gallon pool. It would be 5.5 gallons for an 18,500 gallon pool. So then 15ppm should be about half of that, or 2.75 gallons bleach.

Anyway, that's how I figured it out. Please let me know if I've done it wrong. Thank you soooooo much. I hope to find a way to share things I'm good at with you guys someday. You deserve to be on the receiving end once in a while!

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I think I found my mistake. I was assuming liquid chlorine from the store, whether clorox or off-brand, was 10%. I haven't checked the bottle, but from other posts I read, it's probably only 6%???? Is that the mistake I made in calculations?

[Watermom]

Could be. Some bleach is 5.25%, some is 3%, but most that is sold now is 6%. And, if it is not fresh, it may not even actually be the strength it is supposed to be.

[JuJuBee]

10 May 2012

Ok. It was 6% so i was under breakpoint chlorination. Q1: (does that even work anyway? Brkpt chlor.?)

Also, we bought a new oto (HTH 6-way @ Walmart) and even tho we added 10 gallons of Chlorine last night, our chlorine levels today barely yielded a med yellow color 1.5-2.0.

We also checked our CYA with it. It was 88 ppm. Lordy! I know too low CYA creates the ammonia prob that eats away our chlorine. Q2: Can high CYA levels cause wasted chlorine in any way?

Our pH was at 6.8 so aerating isn't creating pH increase yet. Q3: Why is that? Its a smaller pool at 18,500 gal.

Pete just added 15 gallons liquid chlorine tonight to provide 50 ppm. (I'm going to watch out the window when the garbage men come for their reaction to the massive amounts of empty bleach bottles.) If that doesn't get rid of CC, nothing will.

One other question for anyone who can answer: Q4: Where in the Chicago west suburbs can we find someone that sells 12.5% Chlorine? It's more difficult than winning the lottery. We found ONE store, just one - American Sale, that sells a 12.5 % liquid shock by the gallon for $2.50. No one else carries it anymore. It's like there's a conspiracy to make it difficult to get. Even most pool store's sites show "not found" when searching for it or "We're sorry, This item is no longer in stock or carried" or something to that effect. I bet they make far more money on the other stuff they sell because you always need more and more of it! And then those who do carry it can charge "hard to get" prices. We'd like to be able to buy in some kind of bulk so we don't have so many bottles to carry like with the 6% product.

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One last question tonight: Q5: why would our OTO test kit not show a change of color just 45 min - 1 hour after dumping 15 gallons of chlorine in? And last night we had added 10. Our test kit showed the same 2.0-ish yellow. I never get anywhere near the dark-yellow, orangish-yellow color PoolDoc wants me to maintain. After

• 7.5 lbs dichlor, [ 26 ppm FC; 20 ppm CYA ]
• 6.0 lbs easy shock, [ DILUTED dichlor: 11 ppm FC; 10 ppm CYA ]
• 7.5 lbs dichlor[ 26 ppm FC; 20 ppm CYA ]
• 3 gal 6% bleach [ 10 ppm FC ]
• 10 gal x% bleach [ 32 ppm FC ]
• 15 gal x% bleach [ 48 ppm FC ]

[ over 100 ppm FC ]

I should be seeing orange?? Shouldn't I? Especially right after adding it? And all the while CYA is over 30, then 52, then 88. pH is below 7 due to high alk and aerating. We add chlorine in evening.
??

[PoolDoc]

Hi Judy;

I did a bunch of editing on both yours and my posts, because they'd gotten hard to read, and because there was a lot of stuff that wasn't immediately relevant to your current situation.

Let me start by saying as plainly as I can: I don't know -- not for sure -- what's going on with your pool. I think I can guess, but I am not completely certain.

Next, I need to ask you to hand your husband that stupid Taylor book and ask him to hide it somewhere, where you can't find it. You're asking a bunch of questions, because you've read that book carefully. Unfortunately, that book is based on old-school pool company chemistry, and a lot of it is wrong, and some of what's not wrong, is irrelevant. In particular, the whole breakpoint chemistry concepts in there are so mis-applied that they are confusing your current situation no end. AFTER your pool is 'all-better' you can get with Chem_Geek in the China Shop, work out the fine points of chlorine-ammonia oxidation, and then reconcile what's going on with your pool, with the stuff in that dumb book. (When I sold the K-2006 directly, I threw out the book and the calculator, before I shipped the kits, to avoid this exact problem!)

-------------------- In progress -- not finished yet --------------------

[JuJuBee]

Too funny, I'm such a geeky school girl. Consider it done - book is out of my site.

[JuJuBee]

Hi, wanted to post update:

***!!!Alkalinity reading dropped to 130 ppm today!!! It's been over 200-250 for 4 straight years. It could have dropped anytime between the 10th and today since we tested 200 on the 9th. YAY! The aeration worked as you wrote it! YAY!!!***

pH rose to 7.2 also on it's own. As per instructions, we are still aerating until our pH is at or above 7.6 again. I'm not in a rush to add Borax until you say so. I read another current post where you said higher pH helps clear up the CC / Amonia problem quicker. But i still want to wait until im told its time for us to add it. No two pools are exactly the same so I'm sure no two "plan of attacks" are either.

Therefore.....Still battling CC and the mysterious loss of all newly added Chlorine.
1:00 pm - Vacuumed and backwashed filter today to lower rain-induced water level by 2".
5:00 pm - Added 2 gallons 12.5% liquid shock
7:00 pm - HTHs OTO TC=2.0-ish yellow
7:25 pm - added 2 more gallons 12.5% shock
9:00 pm - HTHs OTO TC= ?? 3.0 for sure. Couldn't discern if it was as dark as 5.0. Didn't look yellow-"orangy" - just darker yellow.
Did a second OTO (Pentair) TC=3.0 yellow. Not sure if it was much darker than that. Hmmm. 50 ppm chlorine added since 7pm. Why no orangy-yellow?
Did a quick FC chk with K2006. FC>=7.0 CC =? (>3-4+++)
Got 7.0 minimum - could have been a tad higher if 1-2 more drops added to seal perminent clear end result. But it wouldn't have taken us much beyond 8 i dont think.
Didn't have enough titrant to measure CC but we know we added 12 drops before running out and still had dark Pink. So we at least have 3-4 ppm but probably much higher.

We'll test water in morning to see if chlorine drops below 2.0-3.0 overnight or not.
One last reminder, our pool is sparkling clean and we haven't noticed any odd smells or colors/dirt. We now just need a way to accurately measure our chlorine and know when it's safe to swim and when to add a dose.

Happy Mother's Day to any Mom's browsing through this post!