+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: any way to control pH better?

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    PoolDoc's Avatar
    PoolDoc is offline Administrator Quark Inspector PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    11,384

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Some forms of algae seem to be able to create something like 'roots' into porous plaster and concrete surfaces. If you've got pits, you've probably got porous plaster. Once those forms of algae are established, killing the visible algae is sort of like mowing crab grass. You STILL haven't got the roots.

    Unfortunately, there are no 'herbicides' for algae that will reach into the roots.

    Once a penetrating algae is established, management is more a matter of control, rather than eradication.

    You could do something like raising the water level to completely cover the algae, and then raising your chlorine level to 50+ ppm (no misprint - I mean "50") and holding it there for a week or so. That might kill all the algae. Or, it might not.

    You can acid wash, which may remove the algae, but at the price of making your plaster even MORE porous than before, and thus more susceptible to NEW algae.

    You can coat the pool with epoxy paint, which algae can't easily penetrate or grow on.

    But, for this season, the practical think is control, not eradication.


    Regarding pH, the short answer is, "I don't know why your pH keeps drifting up".

    There are many possible factors. If you aren't using a kit with Taylor based reagents, sometimes as little as 3 ppm can mess up readings. But, that wouldn't cause a apparent rise, unless you raised your chlorine too.

    If your pool is relatively new, changes in the plaster can cause changes in pH.

    Or maybe, if you are using something besides trichlor tabs (which are acid) but have gotten a hold of some calcium hypochlorite tabs, that can raise pH.

    Or something else.

    I can observe that, in my experience with multiple large commercial pools managed with sodium hypochlorite (bleach) feed systems, I universally found that bleach fed pools 'wanted' to be at a pH of 7.6 or higher. I have no analytical explanation for this. But I can tell you that I discovered that if I let the pH float upwards, it usually -- but not always -- stopped before 8.0. I also found that if I operated the pools between 7.6 and 8.0 it took FAR less acid, than if I tried to operate the same pool between 7. 2 and 7.6. (Note to Chem Geek: yes, I tried it both ways on the SAME pools )

    I never tried to mix trichlor and bleach -- not sure why you'd do that -- but regardless, you may find that your pool has some point below 8.0 where it will 'rest' or you may find that if you operate in the 7.6 - 7.8 range, it will continue to require acid additions, but only small ones.

    If you run at higher pH, you'll need to compensate by running slightly higher levels of chlorine.

    On another related note: buffering has to do with how difficult it is to change the pH of a solution (your pool water in this case). Highly buffered water has highly stable pH . . . . IF the buffer in question is effective at that pH level.

    Most buffers have ranges over which they are effective, and other ranges over which they are not so effective. Cyanuric acid is an effective buffer at LOW pool pH levels, below 7.4 as I recall. Borax is an effective buffer at HIGH pH levels, above 8.0, I think. Total alkalinity tests measure how much buffer you have, but not which levels it's effective at.

    This is important, because if you have drifting pH levels like you do, it's your pool's buffer system that determines how hard you'll have to work to maintain your pH level. Absent aeration, sodium bicarbonate is an effective buffer in the 7.0 - 8.0 range where your pool lives. A pool with an effective bicarbonate based "Total Alkalinity" will require larger doses of acid, added less frequently, compared to a pool without that bicarbonate based buffer.

    More or less, a well buffered pool will require that you adjust your pH less frequently than a poorly buffered pool. It won't really decrease how much acid you need, but it will change how often you have to add it!

    This doesn't matter on a pool with a stable pH -- if the pH is not moving, you don't need something (an effective buffer) to keep it from moving fast. But on your pool, it does matter.

    For that reason, I wouldn't recommend trying to replace your bicarbonate buffer system (effective in the pool pH range) with a borate buffer system (not so effective in the pool pH range). But it's up to you. You can run the pool successfully either way.

    Best wishes,

    Ben

  2. #2
    PoolDoc's Avatar
    PoolDoc is offline Administrator Quark Inspector PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    11,384

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Just saw the photos -- so-called black algae.

    And, with an eroded pebble finish like that, you've got a long term maintenance issue.

    Could you mail larger versions of those photos to me at poolforum AT gmail DOT com?

    I'd like to edit them, comment on them, and repost them here. I can explain a bit more of how and why, and what to do, if you do (BLACKMAIL, here! )

    Ben

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    PoolDoc-

    I just wanted to comment something about the surface, I'm in AZ too, and it seems to be a real popular finish here, the PebbleTec. It's not eroded plaster, as you seem to think (I don't mean to insult your intelligence if you already know what I'm talking about), which is a small pebble inlay with concrete or grout as a binder surrounding it. The difference in depth between the top of the pebbles to the binder is no more than 1/32". I have no idea whether that would affect your diagnosis or not, but I thought it might be helpful to clear that up.

    Dan

    By the way, I have the same issue regarding pH rising, in my 5 years with this pool, not once have I ever had to raise it, always lowering. Don't know if that has something to do with the water here, the environment, or what.
    10,000 in ground, concrete w/PebbleTec surface, waterfall
    420 sq. ft. cartridge Pentair filter, In-floor popup cleaning system, 2-1 hp pumps (1 for popup system)

  4. #4
    PoolDoc's Avatar
    PoolDoc is offline Administrator Quark Inspector PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars PoolDoc 5 stars
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    11,384

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    No insult taken . . . I didn't actually think Pebbletec was eroded plaster, but I've seen pools with, hmmmh, shall we say raggedy edge finishes, so I didn't want to get too specific. The bottom line for me, when I'm posting here, is that I'm usually pretty conscious that I don't really know what the poster actually has on, or in, or around their pool.

    In this case, seeing the pictures was really interesting. I hadn't realized that you'd get waterline deterioration of the interstitial filler in Pebbletec like his pictures show.

    By the way, do you happen to know the actual chemical or mineral composition of the "pebbles" and of the filler?

    PoolDoc

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Well, according to their website-

    "Created with pebbles from around the world that are selected for their color and beauty."

    So, if they're telling the truth, they are actual pebbles and not some composite. I can't say what the filler is, but it appears to be concrete. Seems I read once how they apply it, a layer of concrete with the pebbles mixed in, then at a point they gently wash off the concrete exposing the pebbles. Can't find that info now, so not sure I have that right.

    And, I'm not convinced there is any deterioration going on there. The photos look exactly like mine (minus the black deposits), in fact it looks like there is a calcium ring exactly like mine, that may be what's making it look like deterioration.

    Dan

    Edit-Actually, the more I think about it, the filler probably wouldn't be concrete as the aggregate would be exposed as well. Guess I have no idea what it is, unless it's just the cement used in concrete, or mortar.
    Last edited by dhanger; 07-08-2010 at 09:21 PM.
    10,000 in ground, concrete w/PebbleTec surface, waterfall
    420 sq. ft. cartridge Pentair filter, In-floor popup cleaning system, 2-1 hp pumps (1 for popup system)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Ben, I will email the pics to you.

    Dan is right in his description of my pool. There is a pretty thick build up of calcium on the pebbles just above the waterline. It is higher in relief than the pebbles below the waterline. Both my neighbors have the same thing on their Pebble Tec pools, so I think this is sort of "normal" for this area. I have a similar build up on the inside of my glass shower door despite having a water softener, but that is an entirely different rant...

    EDIT: the algae appears to be green, not black. I doubt this makes much difference in this conversation.
    Maybe we will try lowering the water a bit and blasting the algae with 50:50 bleach every time we can and see what happens! Thankfully, it's not around the entire pool. We had this algae worse last year but it seemed to go away, especially when I shocked the tarnation out of it in June (60 ppm-- oopsy) but alas, I guess there were microscopic roots in there.

    As an aside, I am using trichlor and liquid chlorine only because I already had the trichlor from last year and I need more CYA in the pool, so I thought I might as well use them up.

    Hmmm. I was really thinking the borates were going to help stabilize my pH. Is this hopeless, or should I put some more in? The info here suggests 50 ppm but I stopped short at about 40 just to be cautious.

    Tabitha
    Last edited by Furbabyvet; 07-08-2010 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #7
    CarlD's Avatar
    CarlD is offline SuperMod Emeritus Vortex Adjuster CarlD 4 stars CarlD 4 stars CarlD 4 stars CarlD 4 stars CarlD 4 stars CarlD 4 stars
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    North Central NJ
    Posts
    6,607

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    I'm not sure why a direct application of bleach to the surface won't at least control it.
    Carl

  8. #8
    waterbear's Avatar
    waterbear is offline Lifetime Member Sniggle Mechanic waterbear 4 stars waterbear 4 stars waterbear 4 stars waterbear 4 stars
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    St. Augustine, Fl
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,743

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post

    I can observe that, in my experience with multiple large commercial pools managed with sodium hypochlorite (bleach) feed systems, I universally found that bleach fed pools 'wanted' to be at a pH of 7.6 or higher. I have no analytical explanation for this. But I can tell you that I discovered that if I let the pH float upwards, it usually -- but not always -- stopped before 8.0. I also found that if I operated the pools between 7.6 and 8.0 it took FAR less acid, than if I tried to operate the same pool between 7. 2 and 7.6. (Note to Chem Geek: yes, I tried it both ways on the SAME pools )
    I have seen the same effect on customer's pools with SWGs and on the commercial pools with bleach feed systems also, and have discussed this before on different forums.



    Most buffers have ranges over which they are effective, and other ranges over which they are not so effective. Cyanuric acid is an effective buffer at LOW pool pH levels, below 7.4 as I recall. Borax is an effective buffer at HIGH pH levels, above 8.0, I think.
    At normal pool pH range most of the borate/boric acid buffer is in the form of boric acid and has a downward effect on pH when it starts to climb as opposed to the bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer which causes ph to move toward 8.2

    Just my 2 cents.
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: any way to control pH better?

    Another late update on the waterline algae problem. After using the BBB method all summer and attacking one more algae bloom (due to landscaping debris left in pool too long and my negligence), the waterline algae is completely gone. We did scrub with bleach, but I think it was just having balanced water over time that really fixed it.

    I'm still amazed at how stable our pool has been using these simple concepts. Now that we have things under control, we're gonna try a SWCG to indulge my laziness even more. Ya'll are great. Thanks a million!

    Tabitha

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Can't get under control
    By Comma in forum Pool Chemicals & Pool Water Problems
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-26-2012, 01:39 PM
  2. automatic control of SWG?
    By mattmcarroll in forum Salt Generators (SWCG) & other Chlorine Feeders
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-11-2010, 04:43 PM
  3. PH Difficult to control
    By vanduse1 in forum Salt Generators (SWCG) & other Chlorine Feeders
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-03-2006, 01:14 AM
  4. Help! My Ca is Out of Control
    By mphare in forum Testing and Adjusting Pool Water Chemistry
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-01-2006, 08:45 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts