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Thread: The Great Nature2 Debate

  1. #21
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Just lining up ducks . . .

    Nature2 Patents:


    5352369-Henig-Fountainhead-Method of treating water
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5352369.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5352369.pdf

    5660802-Henig-Fountainhead-Water purifier
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5660802.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5660802.pdf

    5766456-Denkewicz-Fountainhead-Water purifer for a pool
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5766456.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5766456.pdf

    5779913-Denkewicz-Fountainhead-Water purifier for a spa
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5779913.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5779913.pdf

    5858246-Henig-Fountainhead-Method of water purification with oxides of chlorine
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5858246.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5858246.pdf

    6093422-Denkewicz-Zodiac-Biocidal compositions for treating water
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6093422.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6093422.pdf

    6200487-Denkewicz-Zodiac-In-line,in-pool water purification system
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6200487.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6200487.pdf

    6254894-Denkewicz-Zodiac-Silver self-regulating water purification compositions and methods
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6254894.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6254894.pdf

    6524540-Henig-Biocatalytica-Materials and methods for water purification
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6524540.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6524540.pdf



    PoolDoc

  2. #22
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    More ducks . . .

    Zodiac Pool Systems EPA registrations from http://ppis.ceris.purdue.edu/ :


    Interestingly, there does not appear to be an active sanitizer registration for Zodiac involving monopersulfate.

    Firm Number: 67712
    ZODIAC POOL SYSTEMS, INC.
    6000 CONDOR DRIVE
    MOORPARK CA 93021
    805/529-2000

    Number of Selected Products: 3


    NATURE2 G45-VC40
    Registration Number: 67712-1
    Status: Active
    Approval Date: 11-21-02
    Product Manager: Marshall Swindell (703)308-6341
    Percent Active Ingredient
    8.2300 Copper sulfate pentahydrate (24401)
    3.5100 Silver (72501)


    NATURE2 AG
    Registration Number: 67712-5
    Status: Active
    Approval Date: 11-21-02
    Product Manager: Marshall Swindell (703)308-6341
    Percent Active Ingredient
    9.4300 Copper sulfate pentahydrate (24401)
    2.3300 Silver (72501)


    NATURE2 SPA
    Registration Number: 67712-15
    Status: Active
    Approval Date: 02-16-06
    Product Manager: Marshall Swindell (703)308-6341
    Percent Active Ingredient
    0.9200 Silver (72501)

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    The MPS / Nature2 Missing Registration Mystery

    Searching in Purdue U's database of EPA registrations
    http://ppis.ceris.purdue.edu/htbin/epachem.com
    for:
    Potassium monopersulfate
    Oxone (Dupont trade name)
    37222-66-5 CAS number
    I came up with zip.

    BUT, Nature2 claims to have a registered spa sanitation system, involving MPS
    http://www.nature2.com/spaproducts/nature2spa.asp
    "If used with MPS, the most recommended spa oxidant, Nature2 Spa becomes a complete spa sanitizing system - the only non-chlorine spa sanitizing option available. And managing your spa is easier than ever; Nature2 Spa slips into your spa filter and lasts up to four months."


    http://apps.cdpr.ca.gov/cgi-bin/labe...l?prodno=54550

    I did find a more complete set of approved labels, with other information. I'll have to explore this later:
    http://apps.sd.gov/doa/prrs/search/P....asp?key_m=779

    Found the MPS Spa "recipe":
    https://apps.sd.gov/doa/PRRS/ImageVi...47156&Type=pdf

    That's all for tonight.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Ben, I sent you a PM.
    Also, check out this thread which had both the old and new spa low chlorine recipes in it.
    http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=5446
    I posted it in 2006 when Zodiac changed the instructions and came out with the "NEW" low chlorine recipe which works out to maintaining about a 2-3ppm FC in the spa and shocking to about 10-12 ppm as compared to the "OLD" recipe that shocked the spa to 6 ppm on startup, kept a .5 ppm residual, and "as needed shocking" to 2 ppm. Wonder why they made the change in 2006?
    Interestingly enough, the current spa instructions on the US website have a 2007 copyright and they have upped the 'as needed shocking" with dichlor to a higher FC level, about 10-12 ppm. Hardly a low chlorine recipe at all.
    In the original recipe MPS was an option for the as needed shocking, in the 2006 and 2007 instructions the use of MPS as shock is no longer done but dichlor is used instead.

    Also, here is an interesting link from Zodiac Australia. It is the Australian instructions for the N2 express. FC is kept at a minimum of 1 ppm and higher levels for indoor or stabilized pools. They then go recommend stabilizer levels of 50 ppm! (Is this a sneaky way to say that FC needs to be higher than 1 ppm with a N2?)
    http://www.zodiac.com.au/media/29825...s%20manual.pdf
    I know that the APVMA (Australian government entity that controls pesticides and swimming pool chemicals, much like our own EPA,except their guidelines for pool and spa sanitizers seem to be more stringent than ours) did recall the Nature2 in 2004 because of the very low chlorine levels they were suggesting (much like the US instructions still do)
    http://www.apvma.gov.au/publications...tte0403p14.php
    They also recalled the N2 spa carts because of the MPS only options (which changed in the US in 2006 to require chlorine in the recipe for shocking)
    http://www.apvma.gov.au/publications...tte0406p26.php
    Last edited by waterbear; 06-27-2010 at 10:22 AM.
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    All very interesting.

    The change from the original Fountainhead patents to the current incarnation is interesting. It appears that the old product focused on what happened inside the cartridge while the new ones are merely passive "mineral-izers".

    Again, it looks like Henig STILL believes that something real was happening in his unit; he has newer patents along that line. But Zodiac and Denkewicz seem to have given that up. There was some justification for the "'active oxygen" and catalyst language dealers have used, in that Henig and other Fountainhead folks seem to have believed it. (Who knows: it might even be true!) But, it doesn't apply to the current Nature2, at all.

    Seems to be an example of a corporation seeing value, not in the actual product, but only in the brand name.

    Ben

  6. #26
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Yet, at best, it still comes out to a very expensive "solution" to the fear some people have of chlorine, a fear I've yet to see justified. I'd be guessing at the statistics but I'd say for every person actually truly sensitive to chlorine and bromine, there's a VAST number that think they are, when it fact they are merely sensitive to a poorly maintained pool--as most of us are!
    Carl

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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Carl, I think a lot of the problem goes back to the fact that a lot of people have
    1. Experienced skin or eye irritation in pools that were . . .
    2. Chlorinated.

    The whole FREE / COMBINED distinction is to them a "distinction without a difference", because the chlorinated pools they have encountered were irritating.

    Ben

  8. #28
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    Carl, I think a lot of the problem goes back to the fact that a lot of people have
    1. Experienced skin or eye irritation in pools that were . . .
    2. Chlorinated.

    The whole FREE / COMBINED distinction is to them a "distinction without a difference", because the chlorinated pools they have encountered were irritating.

    Ben
    Ben,

    Exactly!

    Eat a spoiled piece of fish and it puts you off fish, which has nothing to do with fish itself.

    Carl
    Carl

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Great Nature2 Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    All very interesting.

    The change from the original Fountainhead patents to the current incarnation is interesting. It appears that the old product focused on what happened inside the cartridge while the new ones are merely passive "mineral-izers".

    Again, it looks like Henig STILL believes that something real was happening in his unit; he has newer patents along that line.
    Then if this really IS the case it means that the only sanitatin takes place INSIDE the unit, whch makes it no better as a sanitizers than an ozonator or UV sanitizer. The only water that is being sanitized is inside the chamber! Once again this means that a fast acting residual sanitizer at levels that are effective needs to be present in the water.

    It IS all very interesting!
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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