chlorine mixing Q's

[PBLsQuad450]

Hi all. I was wondering, I shocked my pool after opening with Cal Hypo (~15 lbs.). I am switching to BBB. But for now and future reference, if I use bleach, can I shock with Cal Hypo? Or even vis-versa? I know I had to be very cautious with Cal Hypo and Trichlor. And how fast does bleach go into solution? Pretty immediate right? I ask because I don't want to be messing with liquid sodium hypochloride in my work clothes and tie in the morning. Would much prefer to do maintenance after work, but that is also a prime swim time?

Just read in the test kit manual that bleach is like 13 ph. Is that true? Will I be going acid crazy on BBB? Honestly, I'd rather be going Borax crazy. I'm OK with handling acid safely, but you would need to be pretty stupid to damage yourself or anything else with Borax or Baking Soda. Muriatic Acid (HCL) is another story.

Also, I have an off-line chlorinator on my filter that will now be sitting empty. Is there anything I should do? Should I remove it and plug the holes or just turn it off and let bygones be bygones? I will NEVER go back to Trichlor (unless I want to use to raise my CYA, but I'd rather just add the CYA). Been so pool-stored, and more than a couple of times. But if do want to use up my crazy expensive leftover Trichlor, maybe I should leave it be? Other than a potential leak is there any possible harm it can do?

Just got my new, "real" test kit. It is the Leslie version of the Taylor 2006. Even has Taylor labeled products in it.

You all are the best. BTW, any central Jersey folks out there?

And, to all the mods, thanks, not just for getting to my posts but for filling up this site with a bazillion great peices/threads/sermons?

And Ben, you freakin' rule. Had very close cousins in the vol state for years, heck, east Tennessee is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen. Thanks for all of this man. Dude, in one small way you have/are making an incredible impact in the world (of course the mods too...). People live lives wishing they had made some impact. In fact, and the research is very credible, when people get toward the end of their lives they say 2 things (all of them, everywhere these studies have been replicated and boy have they)... 1. I wish I had made an impact in some way. Glad for the family... but still.
2. I wish I had partied more and had more sex.
All true to the research, I promise. I work with faculty who study these things! So, with the former going so well, be sure to attend to the latter!!

Thanks BP and glad you are out there.

Paul

[Watermom]

Hi Paul,
Regarding the bleach and cal-hypo question -- either way is not a problem.

PH of bleach is high, but shouldn't cause you to have to add acid. I have used bleach exclusively in my pool for 10 years and have never had to add acid, not even one time.

Nothing you have to do with the chlorinator. You can turn it off. If you decide at a later time to use some trichlor, you can just turn it back on.

Thanks for the kind words. We enjoy what we do. Just remember, no going to sleep during the sermons!!

Yes, Ben rocks. He has taught so many people how to take care of their pools easily and without draining their wallets.

As for your last, ahem..... "recommendation" --- we'll do our best!

Glad to have you on the forum!

[CarlD]

The Leslie's kit is just fine. It's merely a re-branded version of the K-2006--with the rebranding consisting of putting it in a Leslie's box. One good thing about Leslie's drop tests--they use Taylor reagents and just change the box.

[PBLsQuad450]

Thanks CarlD- I checked first on-line and yep, they are identical. Same price too.

Watermom- Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure why bleach doesn't drive up the ph more? But hey, I liked chemistry so much in high school I took it twice. Same class! Passed with a "C" the 2nd time!

Funny in a sense that people kind of wish they had been "badder." The stats go accross cultural and class lines too.

PF rocks! If I am grasping this, then it is a miracle. Just bought ~15 pounds of 20 Mule Team Borax for $9.00. When I was at Leslie geting the test kit I priced Soda Ash. For 15 lbs. it was $30.00.

[Watermom]

Yeah, you got it. plus Borax will only raise your pH and not mess with your alk. Soda ash will do both. So, if your alk is fine and your pH is low and you add soda ash, then you gotta go back to the store and buy something to lower your alk back down to where it already was and then that new addtion will cause your pH to drop so you gotta go back and buy some pH up and then.............. while the cash registers go 'cha-ching!'

[CarlD]

Caveat:

Watermom is, of course, correct that Borax will not mess with your T/A.

HOWEVER, you must understand that pH and T/A are linked and when pH goes up, T/A goes up, and when pH goes down, T/A goes down. The ONLY way to raise pH without raising T/A is by aeration--fountains, splashing kids, etc.

So, in this vein, if you use soda ash (Washing Soda) your pH will go up but so will your T/A. If you were to lower you pH to back where you started, your T/A would be higher than when you started.

[chem geek]

I'm not sure why bleach doesn't drive up the ph more?

The short answer that explains this seeming conundrum is that though the pH does rise when you add bleach (or any other hypohchlorite source of chlorine such as chlorinating liquid, Cal-Hypo, or lithium hypochlorite), the pH falls back down again when the chlorine gets used up -- that is, when the Free Chlorine (FC) drops back down. This is because the consumption/usage of chlorine is an acidic process that balances out the initial rise in pH from the chlorine addition. I explain this technically in this post, but that's chemistry that will probably cause you nightmares so avert your eyes if you accidentally click on the link.

The only net pH rise will be from the "excess lye" that is added to bleach and chlorinating liquid (and less so with Cal-Hypo), but this amount is low in high quality bleach products like 6% Clorox Regular unscented which has a pH of 11.9 and in high-quality chlorinating liquid that has a pH of 12.5. There are many off-brand 6% Ultra bleach products that have more excess lye in them and have a pH of 12.5, 13 or more and would tend to have the pH rise more quickly.

There is also a tendency for pH to rise in pools due to carbon dioxide outgassing, but this can be minimized by keeping the TA lower. Finally, the pH can rise substantially in newly plastered pools due to the curing of plaster.

Richard