Pump/Filter Sizing Mytery

[kingbud]

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wow, dude, you are really generous with your time!! thanks. I'll be back later... processing... processing... processing...

[Vinyl_Guy]

Thanks

My time is sort of relative at the moment.

I'm unemployed (as of now) and I type like the wind.

It's good for me to stay busy and feel useful .

[kingbud]

Hey VG- just a bit of an update. Good news, or at least an advance, concerning structural issues: I found the outfit that built my pool 30+ years ago, and I've got an appointment for a walk-around and consult with them, although they can't get to me before next week. They remembered the pool, a little vaguely to be sure, but they remembered. At least found out the pool is definitely gunite, since the name of their company is "Black Gunite Corp.", and they have been doing pools for a long time. So I'll be able to pick their brains about repairing cracks and caulking the fiberglass side walls.

One bummer, I was hoping they had built in sub-drains. Alas no, that was not SOP unless they hit a spring when they were digging the hole. So that has an important impact on another one of my questions: The South (long) side of the pool is built up against about a 25 - 30 degree hillside, and I'm quite nervous about draining the pool unless I'm pretty certain that the wall is not going to collapse. We've had a rainy year and had 4" last Friday... I've been thinking about putting a drainage tile along the length, if there would be any good in it. Of course that would only take away the runoff. I might not get to do any work IN the pool til next year, and that would suck. Can't investigate the main drain, for example, or do any masonry work. So. By the way, that was a swell idea about changing one of my returns into a suction!! That one is on the books for sure.

Take it easy chief. Any further thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

[Vinyl_Guy]

That's actually a heck of a stroke of good luck the installer is still around.

Let me get the picture straight in my head. The vertical side walls, meaning anything above the shallow end bottom , the deep end bottom, and any "angled" areas is actually a fiberglass? Then it transitions to gunite for the other areas I've mentioned?

If so, it sounds like hybrid I've never seen, having focused most of my pool career on vinyl. Most gunite pools I've seen are entirely gunite. Actually it's plaster that is the last layer giving it the white appearance you see. The gunite is sprayed onto a metal framework then the plaster is applied to that. But generically they are refered to as a Gunite Pool.

Because they're called Black Gunite doesn't automatically mean your pool is a gunite pool. It could very well be concrete, but I highly doubt that at this point.

The "sub drain" is something that's only installed when ground water exists, they are correct about that. It's an additional cost that would only be done, if the home owner requested it. For instance if they knew there was an extreme between the dry season and the wet season of the water table.

Just how much water does the pool lose? They have automated filling systems that are quite simple. A garden hose, hooked up to a float type system. When the water drops to a certain level the a valve is open and water is let into the pool. Sort of like the way a typical toilet tank is filled. It whacks out your chemicals to a certain extent, but that can be compensated for. Also they're good through the winter assuring the pool doesn't empty it self. Could be a hit on your water bill though.

Your "hill" is a tough call without seeing it, but it's obviously a potential drainage problem. My only thought is if the deck is shedding the water properly now a drainage line at the perimeter might actually end up putting more water behind that "long" wall. If anything make sure the drainage "kicks" the water away from either side of the pool (if possible). Get it out and away, rather then just off the deck and straight down underneath it. A "pipe" that's only preforated on the top and not the bottom and pitched properly.

In your first post you said the maindrain seemed sealed with a "screw in" plug. If your mean a threaded plug and not the black rubber "stopper" type then there's a good chance it was permanently sealed at some point for a reason. If the plug is properly glued in a pressure test might be able to be performed on the line. This involves cutting it away from the system (assuming it's still plumped into the suction end of your pump . A pressure test kit essentially is whatever can be rigged up to keep a garden hose sealed to the pipe (jacketed clamp usually) a cut of off or pet cock, and a pressure gauge. The pool is filled with water, and then pressure is applied with the PSI of your hose (8-12 pounds should do it), then the pet cock is closed. The gauge is after the pet cock, so it will register the pressure you've applied. If the gauge falls after a few minutes, then there's a leak, if you can't get pressure into the line, then there's a huge leak. A pressure test isn't to see how much pressure a line can take, but only if it can hold pressure. The problem with doing this on a main drain with an existing plug, is it's not known if the plug is leaking (when a small leak does occur). When this happens you have to dive with a bottle of "dye" to the main drain. Wait for the waters to calm and then squirt the dye near the plug to see if water is escaping from the plug. All the while someone has to be the top side making sure that a constant pressure is being put into the pipe to replace the escaping water, sort of regulating it.

You could do a dive, remove the plug and "see what happens". If the pump draws air when it previously didn't then there's a smaller sized leak in it. If it won't prime at all then there's a large leak. This is assuming the line is still plumbed into the suction end of the pump. If the line isn't plumbed into the main drain then you can still "see what happens". Does the pool lose more water then before the taking the plug out? Same? Less? (doubtful).

There are options even when the pool has water in it. They just take more experience, an ability to hold your breath, or scuba equipment and certification.

As far as the "cracks" go, if they are deep enough so as to make it through the plaster (assuming it is a gunite with plaster pool), any failure in a fix will result in the pool leaking again. The gunite itself is not watertight, it's the plaster that's the final and watertight seal. Are the cracks "hair line" meaning very very narrow like a hair on a white sink? Or are they cracks one could slide a piece of paper or cardboard into (1/8th to 1/4 inch)? Or larger ?Hairlines don't always mean water is escaping from the pool. Although the gunite is not totally "water tight" is pretty darn close and will retain some water that makes it through, just not large amounts.

The next question would be in a trouble shoot for a leak is: Does the pool lose more water when running? Or does it lose no water when not running? Losing more water when running vs. sitting idle would point to a two fold problem. One in the shell and one in the system. A return line (water going back to the pool) leak will not manifest itself in any kind of pump or filter problem (not priming, air in the lines etc etc). But the pool will lose water when the pump is running because the line is under a certain amount of pressure. With out that pressure the leak might not be large enough for water to escape. If it only loses water when the pump is on, then I would highly suspect a return line leak.

If this is the case then eliminating (at the pump) each line individually and either pressure testing them, or running the pool to see what happens. Just plugging them at the wall of the pool would only worse the problem because it would apply more pressure to an already leaking line. If you have a way of regulating the return line with valves at the system. Try running the pool off of each line indivdually and monitoring the water loss. More? Less? The same?, with each individual return line.

You could probably take a few of these basic and relativity easy (other then the dive and pressure test), methods in the remaining days of having the pool running, and possibly narrow done your areas of concern for next season.

[kingbud]

"possibly narrow down your areas of concern for next season."

Thass what I'm talkin' bout! This whole morass of ignorance and anxiety about figuring out exactly what's "out there".... unfortunately it's not swimming pool hypochondria... actually, more like a bad dream. But you are being a really big help. (btw, I'm going to try to get a couple of snapshots for you to look at.)

"Fiberglass side walls" was a bit misleading. What these are are about 10' long sections that go from the elevation of the shallow end up to the tile, about 4" below the water line, and they are the same height all around pool: in the deepend and the slope they go to the top of the "safety ledge" we have already discussed. The safety ledge itself is masonry of some kind, as well as all the remaining surfaces. The vertical joints in my pool have been messily, and without doubt ineffectively, caulked by DIY people who had the pool for around 5 years before me, or even before that.

This leads me to the question of how much water am I losing. For an illustration of rate of flow, the pool was filled by recent heavy rain (Thursday/Friday - 4") to a mark I had previously made on the side wall. Convenient, yes? Today is Tuesday and at noon the water was down 2-1/2 - 3" from that mark, no equipment running...

I have a hypothesis that at the lowest the water will only drop to the level of the shallow end, which was dry when we first looked at the pool - the rest of it was full. The pool had not been touched in probably 2 years. We walked in the shallow end and launched massive chlorine bombs from the water's edge, which was actually where the drop to the deep end took off.

So my suspicion is those vertical seams, although as I mentioned I don't have a clue how they are anchored to the frame or whatever, i.e. some other unseen defect might be possible. I will find out about that from the installer. You'll see if I can get you a pic, they are a pathetic, ugly mess. (I know a little bit about caulking since I ran a good sized waterproofing job once).

The hill: I'm pretty sure water doesn't run into the pool. But dig this: This pool is 40' long. There are two serious cracks in one deck - the "hill" side - that both run on a slight diagonal outward, from the pool rim to the edge of the deck: imagine a shape with one side 18' long, the other side 20' long, with symmetrical ends angling out from the short side to the long side (the "hill" side.) They both start about 11' from the ends, measuring to the "short" side if you follow me. And the concrete between these cracks is dropped about 3/4", maybe less- I haven't actually measured any of this precisely.

So basically I have one solid section of deck dropped uniformly from these two cracks, well over 100 square feet. My first thought was that there was already a drainage system in place that had failed, but probing with a rod out to about 3' past the deck (up the hill) I didn't find any evidence, like filter fabric, gravel, solid pipe. I'm counting heavily on my meeting with the installer to shed light on this and help me plan a solution. I've thought about mud jacking, although I'm not very familiar with that... and of course the rehabilitation of the deck is not as important as figuring out the reason for the failure and fixing it.

My idea for a lateral drain tile would be to install it about 3 feet uphill from the deck, except to "peak" it in the center a couple of feet so I get my fall naturally from the hill, without having to grade my pipe - like a peaked roof, falling gradually from the center to both ends. Trouble is, that's great for future rainfall, but what about saturation?

let's take a short break........................... ah, there!

Still with me? Concerning the main drain, assuming I can prove the integrity of my return pipes, your idea about converting one of them into a suction makes any worry about the main drain pointless.

Cracks appear to be from about an 1/8th anywhere up to 3/8", maybe even 1/2", but I don't think that bad. I have two cracks in the bottom I have spotted that run the whole width of the pool (expansion joints?), plus a few other, lesser faults. You aren't going to believe this, but there was one that had a weed or a root hanging out of it. My wife thinks that the water loss started after she pulled it out, like pulling Johnny's finger out of the dike. Who knows? But I'm not that worried about my cracks, I feel that if I can just have a dry pool and decent weather to work in I can get them cut out, cleaned out, and patched. Thorite is most likely the right stuff, although I've also heard of "hydraulic cement" -- possibly just a generic description of the same stuff.

Testing procedure is straightforward and doable, although I have no idea if the pool loses more when the pump is running. I do know a few things however: the pump leaks when operating. The chlorinator leaks. The filter leaks/sucks air from the vent cock -- I should have fixed that already, but to what end?

On the subject of prime, well, you can't get the suction pot to hold water. You fill it up and it drains back to the level of the main suction pipe, which has a little cleanout plug you can stick a hose into, but you can't fill the line. I've got my shovels honed and oiled... Owners before me "replaced" all the pipes because they were "old". I'm not too worried about finding and repairing the broken pipe on the suction side, if not myself I have plumbers I can commandeer, good tough men. I will do all the excavation myself. Finally, concerning the returns, I have slightly fizzy, bubbly flow from the jets. Hopefully they are all okay because they are certainly deep.

Kah Flooey!!

Like I said, we knew we (I) were getting into a bit of work. But we got the house very right - national housing crisis, you know - and our deal included a certain amount of "warranty" on the pump and filter - not enough to completely cover, but it takes a bit of the sting out of it.

Thank you, muh bruh-thuh!!

Edit by Watermom: Kingbud -- a family-friendly forum, please. I deleted the questionable references to the previous owners.

[Vinyl_Guy]

We need a picture.

The higher the resolution and more detailed the better. If you are not able to upload it to a location, I can provide one for you if need be.

I'm thinking this is not a standard gunite pool, and if it is, it's just been through so much that it doesn't resemble one anymore.

I have a hypothesis that at the lowest the water will only drop to the level of the shallow end, which was dry when we first looked at the pool - the rest of it was full. The pool had not been touched in probably 2 years. We walked in the shallow end and launched massive chlorine bombs from the water's edge, which was actually where the drop to the deep end took off.

That's very telling. Sounds like this fiberglass type thing I've yet to wrap my head around, could be the cause of a majority of the problems, when talking water loss.

Cracks appear to be from about an 1/8th anywhere up to 3/8", maybe even 1/2", but I don't think that bad. I have two cracks in the bottom I have spotted that run the whole width of the pool (expansion joints?), plus a few other, lesser faults.

Purposeful "expansion" type joints would only occur in a concrete pool and not a plastered gunite pool (maybe rarely).

Is the pool "painted" that you can tell? That's a dead give away of "concrete construction", of some type. Or is the "bottom" (shallow end floor,drop off, and deep end), a white (possible not pure white) smooth substance?


Your idea for the landscaping drains sounds about right but remember there's also a large volume of water that is shed from that section of deck too. Getting at the water as it comes down your hill is good, but the water that falls onto the deck and then is shed back to that area can cause just as many problems behind the walls. Although it's probably the much lesser amount of water compared to the hill it could still be enough to cause problems.

But dig this: This pool is 40' long. There are two serious cracks in one deck - the "hill" side - that both run on a slight diagonal outward, from the pool rim to the edge of the deck: imagine a shape with one side 18' long, the other side 20' long, with symmetrical ends angling out from the short side to the long side (the "hill" side.) They both start about 11' from the ends, measuring to the "short" side if you follow me. And the concrete between these cracks is dropped about 3/4", maybe less- I haven't actually measured any of this precisely.

Are these diagonal lines/cracks perfectly straight? If so the deck has dropped right at the point it was predicted it would happen after the pouring of the deck. This would have been a different kind of "expansion joint", a relief joint. It's a weakened indentation, cut, or "score" in the concrete put there to make any pressure that will eventually crack the deck occur in a uniform manner. Think of the sections of concrete side walk. Even though the lines in them might not extend all the way through the concrete that is where they will most likely crack when "heaving" happens. If they (the diaganol lines) are not perfectly straight then they probably left them out. Which is right were they are normally put (diagonally at the corners), and periodically in long stretches too.

Finally, concerning the returns, I have slightly fizzy, bubbly flow from the jets. Hopefully they are all okay because they are certainly deep.

That's most likely not a problem with the return line. Rarely will water being pushed through a return line, pick up air from that line and dispense it into the pool. A return line is more likely to push the water out of any "leak" while running. Air at some point is being introduced into the loop and thus being fed into the pool. Air most likely can't be introduced into the system with out it being "sucked" in. So water leaking from your filters, pumps or other systems topside are probably not the source (believe it or not), those are places water is being "pushed" out. Valves, threaded fittings, loose clamps form the suction of the pump, on out, is probably the source of the bubbles.

If you can see the bubbles in a your pump "chamber", try this: Get a watering can or garden hose that you can regulate. Start where the suction lines come up out of the ground and trickle (pour till the fitting has water all around it, and continue to do this) water on any fitting (elbow, coupling, bushing etc), and valve. See if the bubbles go away or are reduced as you trickle the water all around these "connections". What happens is, the constant flow of water effectively seals the air leak temporarily. It might be in several places, so it make take trickling water on two different ones. Work your way back to the where the suction lines ends up at the pump. Even this fitting might be the culprit. Or any lid, threaded plug or other thing in the pump body itself.

Like I said though at this point I think we need a picture. I still can't picture (no pun intended) this fiberglass type section your describing. I think I understand "where" it is, but why it's there and what its function is, I have no idea. Could it possibly be a section where the plaster/gunite/ or concrete has actually completely failed and dropped away?

If you need help figuring out how to get a picture here (on the forum), or to me, we can work it out. Emailing me is activated in this forum as well as several Instant Messenger services I use.

[kingbud]

Edit by Watermom: Kingbud -- a family-friendly forum, please. I deleted the questionable references to the previous owners.
Last edited by Watermom : 09-16-2008 at 07:45 PM.

Watermom- oops, sorry... it won't happen again. Somewhere in scripture it says, "If a just man correct or reprove me it is a kindness." I think that applies here. (btw, I can't figure out how the Quote feature works)

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Hey Vinyl Guy: Thanks for your excellent advice and counsel. Watch this space.......

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[kingbud]

An interim response while I'm working on the camera deal

The pool is definitely painted (blue green) and the transverse cracks I mentioned were not intended or planned. They meander in a sort of lazy, curvy fashion all the way across the width of the pool. I mentioned "expansion" joints because they look like they might have served, or do serve, that function.

re: cracks in deck: "Are these diagonal lines/cracks perfectly straight? If so the deck has dropped right at the point it was predicted it would happen after the pouring of the deck. This would have been a different kind of "expansion joint", a relief joint."

negative; I see what you are saying, but the cracks are quite jagged. I'll shoot a picture of them. Interesting that you say that this would be the right location where a builder would normally have put expansion or relief joints. I'll have to ask the builder. The striking thing about these are the relative uniformity, and the size of the chunk of real estate that they border - you really see it from a ways back.

re: air in returns: That's most likely not a problem with the return line. Rarely will water being pushed through a return line, pick up air from that line and dispense it into the pool. A return line is more likely to push the water out of any "leak" while running.

Your explanation concerning the returns makes good sense... I'm gonna call that (tentatively) good news. The procedure for wetting the joints on the supply side makes good sense, too. However it's too late for that, the level is below the skimmer so I can't operate the pump. I'm gonna test the suction line from the skimmer (that's all there is anyway) and if it holds, great, otherwise I'm pretty sure I know where to dig. Any suction pipe from the ground up is going to be replaced when I put in the new pump anyway. I suppose I ought to cut off the suction pipe from the main drain and cap it while I'm at it, since I'm going to abandon it -- maybe I'll test it first and use dye or watch for bubbles to see if those plugs are holding. Does any of that make sense? I guess if I cap it off and abandon it, what difference would it make?

I guess that's about it until I take some pictures. I plan on showing you the "relief" cracks, the hill if I can figure out how to get you a good perspective, the lateral cracks, and of course the fiberglass...

Oh, by the way, in my first conversation with the builder he gave me the impression that this type pool, with the fiberglass side walls, is typical for them. Can't wait to get your "views", after I have sent you something to view. Oh heck, when can you just fly out? A week from Sunday I could take you to a Chiefs game (v. Broncos). Ha. Ha Ha HA. Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...........................

[kingbud]

Hey Mr. VG -- you still out there? Something interesting turned up when I was tearing everything down this weekend, getting ready for winter: remember our discussion of the plugged main drain? when I took the end off of the ball valve on that line, the line was full into the valve. the skimmer line was full to the same level, both about 4" below the common suction line into the pump. This level was a good 3' above the pool surface where it now is. Care to speculate? btw, got good flow out of the jets when I blew them out, and was able to blow the skimmer line out from the pump end back to the pool. I plan on pressure testing all the lines, but I was a bit surprised to find the skimmer and main drain lines holding water.

The pool builder hasn't made it over yet... but he was complaining about having 3 kids in football, so maybe he can find some time in a couple weeks. Thanks for your interest.