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Thread: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

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    elsie is offline Registered+ Thread Analyst elsie 0
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    Default Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Then again there's worse, thinking of Janet's experience a few years ago which this doesn't begin to touch.

    I left work two hours early last Thursday because I was concerned about the darkening sky. The storms here in Alabama can be wicked and have scared me since I moved here six years ago from Minnesota where blizzards are considered benign, mostly because I work so far from home here and traffic's so hellacious, a new experience for me in my 53 years. Mostly, I worry about my 3 dogs who are all terrified of bad storms (even though they have the luxury of being on the bed or couch whenever I'm away). By the time I parked my car in the garage and walked through the service door, it was barely sprinkling and I thought "oh false alarm, I should've stayed at work." But then my hair stood on end. One of my two market umbrellas on the deck was flung 20 feet downhill by a tremendous wind and landed on my pump and tore up all the above-ground pvc pipes (except for the waste pipe). Tree limbs, a heavy flower pot and a two-pronged sharp instrument I use to pry the skimmer cover off when high heat makes it expand and stick was ripped away from the nail it hangs on all landed in the pool.

    In the hour after the high winds (my retired neighbor pinned down the time exactly), the water level already had dropped to right below the skimmer, of course, with the pvc's all broken, and as the days went on, the water's now dropped to below the return jets, and still dropping. Because my main drain is closed because apparently the prior owner's had pool lights there and there was a leakage problem (they had the lights removed and closed the drain), it's a closed system, so I know for sure I have a liner tear.

    I'm still waiting on the adjuster to call me, somewhat on pins and needles, hoping he will approve liner replacement; otherwise I'll have to just absorb it, which is not entirely a bad thing because the liner's very old anyway and I was expecting to do this next year. Makes no sense to me to patch at this point. The only reason I wonder if insurance will replace it is because it's already an old liner at the end of its useful life (although one can never know for certain when that is, who knows, maybe it would've gone on for a number of years yet). But then again, it's storm damage, and age shouldn't matter? It would be akin to having an old roof and getting hail damage: insurance would still pay for its replacement...

    Liner outfit coming tonight to give me another bid. I got one last Saturday -- only $145 for all the pvc repair and replacing the ball valve (water handle) (no chlorinator because I don't use one; I should have one put in for resale but when I turned my original one off when I went to BBB method it made an obnoxious rattle sound), but they want $3,000 for a new 16x32 in ground liner; another I spoke with on the phone wants the same. One place I called, but the guy doesn't do in ground liners, told me the going rate should be around $2200, and said that there's lots of folks out there ripping people off and charging $3,000, but I suspect they're all charging $3,000 -- time will tell. Some of the people I've spoken to on the phone can't even tell me the mil of the liner they want to sell me, how poor is that??!!! But, it seems the industry standard *might* be 20 mil.

    1. Should I have whoever replaces the liner see what's what with that main drain? Might I get a lot more water circulation with it open? Would any debris that gets sucked into it then land in the sand filter or the secondary trap at the pump? And, what about safety, that concerns me after hearing stories of children being eviscerated at commercial pools by the main drain. That said, I wonder where the leakage problem was? If it was in an underground lateral, I wouldn't want that main drain reopened. But would that main drain lateral be right now open to the other laterals anyway, which would tell us the leakage problem is definitely not in the main drain lateral but rather right at that main drain site? I don't know how everything connects underground. I guess the liner people would/should know?

    2. Chems. Once the liner's installed and I've got the hose filling it up (20,000 gallons so will take a few days), at what point do I start to add CYA and bleach? Just "as it goes"? Or something like half full, start adding them? And one at a time or simultaneously, figuring, of course, for the appropriate gallonage the pool's at? Of course chlorine can't be retained without CYA, and CYA without chlorine will give me a green pool, so I'm hoping I can add them simultaneously.

    3. With the new liner I think I will start adding my bleach in the skimmer instead of directly into the pool. Are there any problems/issues with doing it this way at all?

    This will be the first time I'll have to fuss with other values. My old pool water was so easy to maintain with just bleach and muriatic acid every week or two. Well, I guess the only other thing really is TA, right? Or extremely low pH, which is something I've never had. I guess I'd better order some Taylor TA reagents while I think about it.

    4. The pump motor was running before I turned it off. Running rather dry, of course. Would running dry for an hour or so cause damage that's not apparent now? One pool service who came to bid said probably not, probably it would be okay as long as it gets prime when everything's fixed. But if I do put in for a claim (only if ins. will pay for new liner), might I want to argue that the motor should be replaced because of unseen damage, or is that pushing it? Will it probably be just fine and not lose a good portion of its life?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by elsie; 08-11-2008 at 04:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Oh, wow, that IS a nightmare....I am a huge chicken when it comes to bad weather--there's nowhere I'd rather be in a storm than home with the blinds closed so I don't have to know what's happening outside!

    I don't know anything about main drains, because my IG pool doesn't have one, so hopefully somebody else will come along to give you useful information about that.

    I think that the insurance probably will cover the liner under "wind damage", just as it should cover your plumbing. I'm not sure about your insurance company, but mine replaces at current market value..they wouldn't depreciate the value of the liner. In the eyes of the insurance company, it was a working liner, regardless of how old it was.

    Your bleach and CYA can be added simultaneously--remember that it's going to take several days for the CYA to dissolve and start to protect your chlorine, so get it in as soon as possible. I would go ahead and add bleach as soon as you have a way to circulate it. You're going to have to add the bleach daily until you have a measurable CYA level, though, so make sure that you have plenty on hand.

    As for adding bleach through the skimmer, (assuming the pump is running), the only problem with it might be fading of the liner around the outside of the skimmer plate if you don't pour it slowly enough...otherwise, adding it through the skimmer is fine. Personally I'd rather add it through the returns, though, so that it gets to my pool before it gets to my filter...I don't want to waste any by trying to "sanitize" anything that's stuck in my sand filter.

    You're right in that TA and pH are the other values that concern you when restarting the pool--running a test on your fill water ahead of time might tell you how much Borax or acid you need to have on hand for the refill.

    Don't know about the pump motor...I'd say that if it were still running when you found it, and if it primes okay after the pool is refilled, you're probably okay...but I don't know much about them so maybe Poconos or somebody that is a motor expert will stop by soon.

    By the way, when your skimmer plate sticks, pour a cup full of tap water from the pool or hose over the plate and it will lift right out!

    Good luck.....you have a mess on your hands but hopefully your insurance company will come through and get you up and running quickly.

    Janet

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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    You're right about Jan's pool nightmare being worse ...............

    But, your problem is certainly a lot to handle, too! Jan has given you good advice. Just a couple of comments. I always add my bleach through the skimmer -- slowly --- and don't have any problems. One other thing, although I am certainly a 'bleach girl,' since you need chlorine and cya, you might want to consider some trichlor tabs to put both in at once in this circumstance. If there was some way that you could put a floater where your water hose is running to fill the pool, that would be a way to get some of both in there at the same time. Then, when your pool is full, you can continue to use the trichlor pucks for awhile to build your cya or switch to bleach. Only thing is that trichlor is very acidic and will drop your ph. If your fill water is extremely low ph, this might not be a good plan, but if not, I think it could solve the problem of needing both in there at the same time for these first couple of days as your pool fills.

    Good luck and sorry you are having to deal with this.

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    elsie is offline Registered+ Thread Analyst elsie 0
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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Thanks Janet, Watermom -

    Of course! Insurance always pays "replacement value" - I momentarily forgot as I've never had a claim in my life before. I may be in good shape, I just hope I don't hear "well, we'll pay to have it patched…" But I do have a really good insurer (Alfa) after giving State Farm the boot a number of years ago.

    Good idea to test my tap water! Then I can be all prepared. I think I still have my TA reagents from Ben's kit a couple of years ago, and they might even still work as they appeared to when I tested once at the beginning of the season out of curiosity. I'll first run on current pool water to see then try it on my tap water. That way I don't have to reorder that reagent, and I still have plenty of CYA reagent from my Spring 2008 order.

    I wonder if I should have them put a chlorinator back on my pump? I had it cut out when I went to the BBB method because it made such a rattling noise turned off. Can anyone tell me if they have a chlorinator but have it turned off and if it makes a racket? If not then I can assume it was that older chlorinator, and putting a new one on might be the way to go, "just in case." I never take vacation because I won't kennel my dogs, but it might be a good thing to just have one put on.

    Got another bid last night and I've already decided I'll go with this guy. He's a go-getter unlike the others who waxed and waned about the timing thing ("well, maybe in a month we can get to installation…"). He said once I give the go-ahead that he'll order it (he measured last night) and it will come in after around 5 days and he'll promptly install it. He also said the mil would be 28 on the floor and 20 on the walls, and he told me about the warranty (one year full, then pro-rated after that). And, that the motor is probably fine, but he'll quote one price with it and one without for insurance. At least this guy knew what he was talking about, EXCEPT, GET THIS: I told him how I sanitize, and he looked shocked and said "liquid chlorine's illegal in Alabama, it's very toxic." I replied "well what's in trichlor or cal hypo? It's all chlorine, except those are stabilized forms." He didn't know how to reply to that so that was the end of that. Boy there's a lot of ignorance when it comes to chlorination and pools!

    Trichlor, trichlor, gosh it's been a long time since I've had to use anything other than bleach. Believe it or not, the water's been sitting at half-mast for five days now, and once or twice I sprinkled some bleach into the water, and it's holding at 10 ppm -- no circulation and no green swamp. So maybe I'm okay if I put a couple of pool cover pumps in the water at either end for circulation and just use bleach as it's filling?

    He left a brochure of liner wall and tile patterns and I'm getting pretty excited about choosing one -- mine's been bleached out for many years. The new ones are so handsome! I'm going to get the one that's like cut glass, a darker blue, with a handsome tile pattern/colors.

    Hey, thanks for your input! I'll let you know how this all turns out as time moves forward.

    Oh, and thanks for the tip on that skimmer plate! Also, I think I'm just going to have that main drain stay closed -- why invite problems (although I wouldn't mind the extra circulation).

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    aylad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Sounds like you're on your way, picking out a new liner would be exciting!! When I picked out the one we have, I was just glancing at samples to humor DH--I didn't realize that he was going to sign the contract the next day!! The one we have is not too bad, but I think I'd do it differently next time.

    Watermom's idea of trichlor is a good one if your pH isn't already low, but you still probably need to add a low "loading" dose of CYA even if you use the trichlor, since it'll take awhile to get it up to 20. I would go ahead and have the guy quote a chlorinator for you too, while you're at it....granted, there are only certain times that they're good to use, but it's sure nice to have them when the conditions are right!!! When I'm not using trichlor in mine (which is all winter and every other summer, or when I finally get my CYA up where I want it), I just leave it empty and the flow dial turned all the way up to 5--that way it just flushes itself out and I don't have a problem with it freezing. You can hear water gurgling inside of it, but it is not louder than the pump, unless you put your ear right down to it...then again, I have a waterfall about 4 feet away, and it's hard to hear anything around it except rushing water.

    Let us know how this turns out!!

    Janet

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    elsie is offline Registered+ Thread Analyst elsie 0
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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Janet, how would you do your liner differently? I've got to make a decision the next day or two and it's driving me nuts (but good nuts).

    The adjuster came out last night, took pictures, and said a check will be in the mail to me today for the liner, the new pvc at the pump, the two market umbrellas, and even $100 for fill water (I called my water board to see how much it will be). Alfa Insurance is hands down the best insurer on this planet. No quibbling, no questions, they just take care of the customer. I'm on cloud nine right now, as I was expecting to have to replace the liner next year on my own anyway. This is a windfall (pun intended) of many thousands of dollars.

    I know darker liners are "in" (although I'm not one to follow the crowd), but I'm thinking it will be difficult perhaps to see the dirt to vacuum up since I vac manually. Fortunately, unless there's a major storm, I have my jets set in such a way that in either end most debris collects in just a couple of spots so I guess I won't use this as a defining factor. My biggest challenge is deciding between aqua and a darker, or true, blue (navyish). The one I have (that has no pattern left it's so old) puts off a light aqua color, and I've enjoyed that, so I'm a bit nervous to switch to the darker blue. It would be nice to have something different, but only if I LOVE it! I think I've got it narrowed down to Inspiration or Medallion (http://taraliners.com/). One is more aqua and the other a handsome more true blue. Initially I was thinking of getting the Arizona or Arcadia but the cut glass look is a trifle busy. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    I don't know anything about main drains, because my IG pool doesn't have one, so hopefully somebody else will come along to give you useful information about that.

    Yikes what a mess. Seen a few trees, tree branches (actually big limbs) too take out liners.

    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    1. Should I have whoever replaces the liner see what's what with that main drain?
    If you've been given any advice or told you need it for circulation, it's really ideal to have it looked at now (see next quote).The previous owner may have plugged it in an attempt to stop a leak or for who knows what reasons. It could be just fine, and only needs to be unplugged to reactivate it. So for that reason I'd have it checked out. You could gain the use of it for only the additional cost (if any) of a pressure test. A pressure test is a must, to make absolutely sure there's nothing wrong with it. If something is wrong physically with the "pot" (the body under the drain cover), it's the only time to fix it. I normally didn't charge to pressure test a main drain when doing a liner replacement. But that was me.

    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    Might I get a lot more water circulation with it open?
    Well this is a question for the ages. One of the very smart poster here might be able to explain it or answer it. Think of it this way. If your pump is fully primed, would an additional line add more volume to the flow? Or would it just reduce the suction on the existing lines already in use (skimmers and "sidewall" suction), thus spreading it out amongst more sources of suction? A lot of things can influence whether volume changes. Power of your pump. How many returns you have, because getting the water back in the pool is also related to how much a pump will "draw". Bottom line when your talking circulation, we're looking for the time it takes to draw the entire volume of the pool out, into the filter, and back into the pool (turn over). Or GPM gallons per minute, in relation to your pool size , . The more GPM effects particulate matter, more GPM means more particulate matter being skimmed, sucked and filtered. More GPM also means your chlorine , if put it in the skimmer, or in an auto-feeder will output more, but since most auto-feeders have a "choke/dial" this isn't a factor. The most that would happen is you'd have to actually turn your feeder back a notch. Unless your auto-feeder while fully "open" wasn't able to inject enough chlorine into the pool, more volume will help that. But that's rarely the case. How more volume affects "floating" type chlornation or manually adding chlorine, is a question for the chemical experts on this forum. I'm a nuts and bolts guy .


    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    Would any debris that gets sucked into it then land in the sand filter or the secondary trap at the pump?
    Yes, the same as any other point of suction (skimmer or "sidewall" suction). If your finding yourself vacuuming the "hopper" (bottom square area) of the pool, it might help. Anything that finds it way down there and then near the drain will get sucked into your pump basket, and anything too small for the pump basket will go into the filter, same as the skimmers. With a proper lid on the drain, the opening for debris is actually smaller then the plumbing in a skimmer. Unless you've got additional devices on in your skimmer for such things. So the "Barbie Doll" in the suction line scenario is less likely with a main drain. Again that's with a proper drain cover, which leads to your next question.


    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    And, what about safety, that concerns me after hearing stories of children being eviscerated at commercial pools by the main drain. That said, I wonder where the leakage problem was?
    Saftely wise if it's a standard vinyl liner main drain "pot". You need (probably by law in your state), an anti-vortex cover. Do not under any circumstances (if the line is reactivated) have a cover that looks like a "grate" installed. The cover should have no openings on top,it be domed and only have openings around its edges.

    Picture of typical anti-vortex cover (it is "domed").

    Quote Originally Posted by DO NOT INSTALL THIS!!!!!
    Absolutely do not have a main drain cover that resembles anything like this, with a flat and slotted surface!!!!!!
    The theory being, if you can cover all the openings you could create a suction that would hold something down. Till the pump lost prime and wasn't drawing any more. The harder it is to do this, the less likely it is to happen. Obviously one design is far superior to another. Flat is easy to cover, domed is much harder, especially if the openings are spread to the outside edges. It's pretty darn hard to cover all the openings of an anti-vortex cover with just your body. Cloths and bathing suites are different though, and provide an entirely different set of problems. A "T"shirt for example could easily cover off all points of suction, on almost any drain cover. I've tried to cover a running drain (anti-vortex) with my belly just to see if I could, I couldn't , I probably might be able to now, but that's a different story . The only way to completely avoid this awful scenario is to not have a main drain. That is known for sure.



    Quote Originally Posted by elsie
    If it was in an underground lateral, I wouldn't want that main drain reopened. But would that main drain lateral be right now open to the other laterals anyway, which would tell us the leakage problem is definitely not in the main drain lateral but rather right at that main drain site? I don't know how everything connects underground. I guess the liner people would/should know?
    I'm assuming by "lateral" you mean a line that is connected with another one underground, meaning it does not run directly to your pump suction all on it's own. Yeah your probably right it's not the best scenario to have the main drain "coupled" with another suction line underground and not within your control to divert or change that situation. Smart pool owner.

    Here's a some scenarios (assuming a lot about your pool though, ie skimmers and such).


    Reason for having a lateral suction line to the main drain: One way of safe guarding against the problem mentioned above (things getting stuck on the main drain) is to have an additional source of suction "coupled" with the main drain. If the main drain became "covered" by something, the other source of suction would prevent it from holding that "thing" down (I hate the imagery so I'll use "things"). Commercial pools are designed this way with two drains any place where one is needed, and far enough apart where one "thing" can't cover them both.

    Sometimes in a typical vinyl pool the main drain is "plumbed" into your skimmer body. Check and see if there is an additional "opening" at the bottom of your skimmer. Are there two "holes" at the bottom?. What happens with this configuration is only the additional residual "pressure" in the skimmer body draws a small flow from the main drain (if any). If there are two holes, is one plugged, either with a threaded white PCV plug, or a black rubber plug? If it's plugged with a rubber plug I highly suspect this scenario is how you main drain is plumbed. A plug (black rubber) both in the drain itself and the skimmer body were added when the drain failed. If it's a white threaded plug (sometimes screwed in from below the skimmer), it might not be the case. If there's only one hole in the bottom of your skimmer, then this is not the case (most likely).

    The other scenario (much like what your thinking), might exist, especially if your skimmer only has one hole at the bottom. Or has two but one is plugged with a threaded white PVC fitting. That is the suction line for the main drain is connected with another suction line. How many lines end up at the front of your pump, where the suction is? One? Two? If it's only one (and the skimmer plumbing scenario can be ruled out) then yes some where under the ground the main drain line was connected to one of your other "known" suction lines. Where and how not even a pool man might know. Once it's buried it's hard to tell. It could be right under where the lines come up. It could have been the place at which the least amount of pipe was needed to achieve this.

    Were you having a hard time keeping the water level in the pool previous to the "Storm"?

    Typical symptoms of this scenario of one part of a suction line being bad while another is not are this:

    1. Hard to prime the pump (get it going). When the lines have drained back own to the water level (assuming your pump is above that), the leak will now draw "air" from the surrounding ground. Once it get's going it could have enough feed from the the good "section" of pipe to remain primed. Now the water pulls past the leak and into the pump. Thus not letting any "exit" the pool.

    2. The pool leaks when it's not running, but doesn't leak when it is running. When the bad suction line sits with out water being drawn past the leak, it slowly leaches water out of the pool. Once the pump is primed and running it creates enough flow to stop this from happening (as described above).

    3. Occasionaly bubbles in the pump (not afterwards that would indicate air from another source further down the "line"). If the window into your pump body develops small bubbles sporadically then a source of air is available at some point "infront of the pump. Lots of times it's the threaded fitting at the pump front or a valve, but sometimes it can be a small leak in suction lines that have two "lateraled" sources.

    4. Pump loses prime eventually. Same scenario as the bubbles, just more severe and the pump loses prime completely.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    Vinyl Guy

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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Con't...........

    Something else:

    If in front of your pump there is more then one line, and a valve is closed (and always has been) then I highly suspect this is the main drain line. A plug was placed in the main drain line to prevent water from seeping out, and the valve was closed to prevent the pump from drawing air (as described above).

    Your initial thought about the drain are spot on.

    Anything additional under the ground, out of your control (laterally plumbed and not individually) can be a nightmare.

    If you have any questions, it might be helpful to look over what you have first and describe the pool as best you can. IE. how many skimmers, valves, lines, returns, "holes in the bottom of skimmers" etc etc.

    Just what your think is pertinent to a follow up question.

    Good luck....
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    Vinyl Guy

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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Elsie,

    I'm glad that your insurance company is not being a pain about the whole thing...and it's great news that they're replacing your liner too!!


    The link you posted for the liners will not work for me..don't know what the problem is. My liner is a light aqua/blue with black outlined blue squares around the top of the waterline. The problem with it being so light is that during pollen season (which is almost year round here), the yellow in the water combines with the liner to look medium to dark green......I know my pool is clean, but sometimes it's hard to tell by looking at it. Next time I think I'm going with a darker (true) blue.

    Janet

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    elsie is offline Registered+ Thread Analyst elsie 0
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    Default Re: Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

    Janet, you could try taraliners.com. I had copied the link but you don't need the extra slashes, etc. What do you think about the Arcadia, Arizona or Medallion? Although, as you'll read more about below, the Medallion in my brochure is a more true blue than is depicted on the webpage, which appears more aqua. You can click on the liner and bring up a better picture. The Arcadia's got a better/higher il on the sides. So you don't think the Arcadia or Arizona are "too busy" and might drive one's eyes crazy? One of them was actually my first choice, but then I thought maybe they were too much.

    Now I'm getting an uneasy feeling. Installer was wrong again. He said all the Tara liners were 20/28 mil, 28 on bottom and 20 on walls. But I've just finished several correspondences with someone at Tara and only the patterns asterisked are more than a straight 20 mil, and the few that are, are 20/27, but the higher mil is on the sides, not the bottom as the installer said. Also, the brochure I have isn't current, and the Tara contact told me to use the website when choosing, yet there's a disclaimer there that says the colors as depicted may not be true. And indeed, when I compare a color in the brochure to the same one on the website, the colors are way, way off. So now I'm getting frustrated. I re-emailed the Tara contact and asked if they have a current brochure they can send me.

    I think I'm going to get other bids now. If the installer is telling customers wrong stuff, well that doesn't sit with me very well. Geesh I already have the feeling there's a ton of incompetence out there and I have to be extremely careful and not rush this, albeit I need to get this done before the leaves start cascading down end of September.

    Vinyl Guy,

    Thanks so much, and I'll print your posts and bring home to review tonight and look at my system and respond tomorrow. But I can tell you one thing, the cover on my main drain is most definitely a grate-type one. I can see now that it's probably wise to just keep it closed and get a new vortex cover.

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