Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

[Vinyl_Guy]

Must have missed your post sorry. I don't know how, I actually posted somewhere else before now, and after your last post.

Don't remove any water from the pool unless he specifically asks you to do so on his "authority". Certainly don't offer to do so again.

If the pool collapses before he's even on site the additional repair costs are that much harder to possibly make his responsibility. See what I'm getting at? What if he get's delayed? An unforeseen (knock on wood I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone) tragedy (car accident, death in the family), and he's not able to start the job that day. Now the pool is empty for that prolonged period your trying to avoid.

If he has insurance to cover some sort of catastrophic failure not covered in the contract, it's probably reliant on him causing the damage. So having you drain the water out of the pool not on his authority might not avail yourself to that coverage. A good gasoline powered "trash pump" can empty your pool in under 2 hours. With other things to do on the job it's not a big deal if the water is in the pool when he arrives. You can unload the truck, work on your pump and filter systems, read the paper if you have to.

As far as how to close it other then the traditional methods because of the timing of the replacement I couldn't say. I wouldn't even begin to pretend I have close to the expertise about chemicals and water clarity of other posters. They are light years ahead of me in that department.

[elsie]

They advised me Friday to get it empty for liner replacement starting tomorrow. I had pool cover pumps running continuously since Friday night and it finally emptied overnight last night but of course the pumps couldn't get rid of the last two inches, so this morning spent two hours (got to work late) using a wet vac to pull out the last of it in the deep end (had to haul many buckets up and out as my wet vac's only about 5 gallons).

It IS interesting to see the old liner's sides -- they've bubbled out and wrinkles are everywhere. I've done what I was supposed to do -- they said it had to be "bone dry" when they come tomorrow. I hope my aching back is for good reason, as we now have a 50% chance of rain tomorrow. Umm...I can only hope it doesn't rain and this project gets completed over the next two days and then I figure 3-4 days to fill with two hoses going into it and maybe I can get it covered before Ike plays with our weather early next week. Not to mention the new worry of the walls collapsing. If that happens to hell with it, I'm going to have holes punched in it and have it filled in with dirt and plant an herb garden, complete with surrounding walkway (f/k/a The Pool Deck).

I tested my tap water last night and the pH is not crazy low at all, in fact the bleach may very well raise it to where it should be. The TA is 120 which is fine and good. So I'm confident I can add CYA and chlorine with the cover on and do fine -

[Vinyl_Guy]

I hope he knocked a few dollars off the price for having you empty it for him. It's not a huge deal if it's not done, but it does save some hassles in the morning when you show up on the job. Like the ones you performed.

If the walls where going to go any time soon they would have when the water was emptied. It actually helps to remove the water very slowly as you did. You should be fine. Although I usually put a string line on them prior to emptying just to see if the they "bowed" a little. Sometimes they will bow a little then go back into place once the pool is refilled with water.

Good Luck......

[elsie]

Apparently he does not empty pool for customers, but that's okay, a slower drain precluded massive property flooding!

The Liner IS IN! He didn't know how much patching of floor and lower walls would be necessary - as it turned out, he needed to trowel all entirely (a vermiculite mixture that looks like cement but is soft) for which he charged $450 extra. When my mouth fell open, he said he usually charges $1250 for it, and I respectfully said "two guys, two or three hours, $1250???" Even the $450 seemed a bit out of line to me, but he said go google it and you'll find $450 is a good deal...I can't believe the product cost that much? The floor and lower walls were just bare concrete with HUGE divits everywhere. Of course they were all fixed and he also gave the various lines more definition (like that ridge in the shallow end before it transitions down).

As soon as they finished the troweling, the winds kicked up and it looked like rain any moment. I said that if the winds got brutal as they often do tons of pine straw and other debris would be dumped onto their work and he said it would undo it, so he and his helper quickly put the new liner in. I swear, it took less than 10 minutes! Amazing! Then the rains came, what a close call that was. He duct-taped a big vacuum hose to the inside of the new liner, put my two garden hoses in and said when it reached a point where he put a sticker on the wall, to stop the water (only a foot or so in the shallow end) until he came back yesterday, and told me that if my circuit breaker were to cut off power to the vac, we'd have to drain and start over. It quickly took care of all the wrinkles and I must say, I was relieved when he came back yesterday morning and turned the thing off -- it was loud! He also fixed all the piping at the pump yesterday - which only took about 15 minutes.

I estimated that about midnight last night the water would be to the skimmer so I set my alarm, and I was right on target. With the excitement of a child I stood out at the pump and flipped the switch but alas, the pump motor was seized up. I returned to bed very disappointed. Fortunately, he's out there right now seeing if he can unseize it. As he said, it worked fine a couple of weeks ago, he probably just needs to take the band off and get it going...

I must say, I'm not in love with the liner -- and I'm so glad I didn't go even darker. It's much darker than the online Tara sample -- it's a true blue. I actually miss the aqua color. I wonder why none of the Tara samples had the aqua color? Frankly, I wouldn't mind having a pattern-less liner that was light blue. At night, even with my pool perimeter lights on as well as my floods, I can't see the water it's so dark. Also, all the seams are quite visible. Oh well, it's a new liner and I didn't pay for it!

He also scolded me for using the bleach method -- long story, but I defended it. I do now know though that I was keeping my bleach way too high. He insisted I should keep it between 1-3 ppm, but if I'm losing 3 ppm each full sun day, that means it would have zero chlorine at some point in the day. I'm thinking I should thus keep it at 5 ppm? I'll aim for a CYA of 50. This liner has a 20-year warranty (limited or pro-rated I believe) and I'd sure like it to last 15 years. He also said that the bleaching of a liner DOES compromise the integrity of it -- he said the vinyl has lots of pores just like our skin, and if you're bleaching the liner out then it's also irreversibly wearing it.

I know one thing, I'm not going to shock and cover this weekend. Algae won't grow with a cover on it, so I'll cover it with a low ppm and just check it occasionally over the next 8 months...

[Vinyl_Guy]

Well that's a relief things went smoothly (other then the bottom).

The numbers for the bottom sound about right.

I charged more then that and that was at least 5 years ago. He most likely didn't put the full thickness of Vermiculite down, that's one of the reasons he could give you a reduced price. Less material used. He probably didn't put the full thickness down because the 2 1/2- 3 inch depth recommended over a new pool dig "hole" is to give the Verm itself some structural soundness.

The reason for not laying down as much is, it would change the dimensions of the pool's depth too much. Having the liner already measured, ordered and delivered, it would be to risky if the cut of the liner wasn't small enough (they're all smaller then the actual hole, and stretch into place). Plus the bottom already has structural integrity with the existing bottom.

If you add up the material and labor that's not all there is to bidding a job. There's so much more. I used to ask my clients/customers, if they got a cheaper bid: "if they back into your fence at some point are they covered?" There's the liability insurance, gas for the trucks, maintenance costs, tools, power equipment, health insurance etc etc. I do the same that people did to me though." How much to take a look at my Japanese Maple tree?" So don't feel bad. I never minded people questioning the price of things. What's the alternative, they're going to accept any number you throw at them? That's never going to happen often, so it's better to be prepared to justify your price.

Yeah the vacs are loud. Pretty cool how they suck the liner into place though. I had a client who's neighbors made them shut the off via the police (I think they were feuding). I had to do it piecemeal in the daylight hours. Usually if you can shut the water off the same time the vacs fail you don't have to empty any water. But Murphy's law usually prevents that.

Just like anything it's the prep that takes the time. The actual fitting of the liner doesnt' take long. I used to always warn the customers with cameras, don't go to the store for snacks, when you get back and it could be filling.

Good job with the water. If it gets too high the water presses against what ever he has snaked behind the liner for the vacs too hard. They become "stuck" and you have to remove water to get them out safely.

Pumps do bind up. It's honest of him to tell you there's a few things they can try before replacing it. I've been to quite a few jobs where previous bids were for a new pump and I got it going again and only charged a service call. It's basically like the old sink garbage disposals/grinders. When they jam you put a broom handle in and try and free it. Same concept with the pump motor, or disassemble it and take a look for foreign objects. There's a couple different things to try for each model pump. Declaring it dead when it first jams or binds up, is never the norm for an honest pool tech.

With your new bottom, the next liner replacement should be: Pump, remove the old liner, sweep, hang the new one, and fill. So there's that to hang your hat on.

Nothing like a new colorful and brand spanking new liner (especially one you like). It's like a new coat of paint.

Good to hear things went relatively well....

[elsie]

But, this did occur to me: since he's the one who put the liner in 10 years ago, why was the bottom and lower walls so pitted and devoid of any soft fill material? It was bare concrete (rough, at that). There's nowhere for any fill to exit? Does this mean 10 years ago he put the new liner on that rough, bare concrete? I should've asked him this, but it just didn't occur to me at the time. Are you saying that the wet vermiculite he put down will then stay in place and not need replacing in 10-15 years? I'm glad you think the $450 was reasonable.

And you're right about all those "invisibles" it takes to run a business -- the office suite he rents, payroll, etc. etc. etc. As it turns out, he's maybe not as honest (or as good) as I thought, however. My beloved 83 year old neighbor, Jim (who's living with lung cancer and heart failure and still cooks for himself and keeps his beautiful acre mowed) came over last night to look at the pump. It is NOT leaking at all -- the leaking is coming from the 2ndary skimmer basket -- it does that when the pump is turned off even with fresh lube. It's never a concern because my pump runs 24/7 when the pool's open and it gets prime and doesn't leak then. It just leaks a little amount when pump is off, and not continuously either, just for a while.

Secondly, Jim knows why the motor's seized. The PVC that attaches to the pump was demolished, and the liner guy had to pry the threaded PVC out of the opening. No doubt a piece of that is stuck in the impeller. Certainly this guy should know this? It's very very evident to even me that the pump is not leaking. Since this is an insurance claim, and I've already paid him for a new pump/motor unit, I'm not going to tell him his failures here. I'll just let him replace it (hopefully today). I wrote him a note asking him to leave the old one behind, as Jim said I can use that for a "spare." Jim will tinker with it and fix whatever needs fixing, but likely there's just a piece of PVC stuck in it. And Jim said if he doesn't show up today he'll take it apart and remove the PVC from the impeller and we can fire her up tonight. It kills me to have this new pool and the water just sitting there unfiltered!

By the way, it didn't take long: the mediterranean blue pool now is nothing short of gorgeous! I'm going to hate to cover it this weekend (or maybe I'll wait until the next -- depends on how many storms are forecast). The only thing I can think of failing for a number of years is the multiport, I suppose. Are they expensive? Thanks for all your guidance Vinyl Guy -- I've really, really appreciated it so much!