Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

[elsie]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

Wheh that makes me feel better....... (for both of us).

If I thought something I was telling you was 100% accurate I'd day so, but I've been sprinkling my posts with lots of "probablys", "most likelys" , and "usuallys". If only to err on the side of caution.

Have a good weekend.....

[elsie]

As it turns out, the liner guy most recommended is the same guy who installed my present liner about 10 years ago (4 years before I bought the property), and unlike all the other liner outfits I met or spoke with, he was far more knowledgeable and paid infinitely more attention to details, and could answer all my questions, and even had real-live liner samples, so I hired him. He apparently used to build pools, but now just does liners -- a lot less hassle he said after 28 years in the business.

The main drain will be history. He's not charging extra to fill it in and do the patchwork. He thought he remembered that the walls of my pool are wood construction. Insatiably curious, after he left I sliced a wall of the liner and through the foam barrier and sure enough, it's a very hard, very even type of wood. I asked him wouldn't wood rot? He said no, surprisingly. But, he did say that my pool was poorly built. There's going to be significant patching because you can see the divits in the deep end walls that have developed over time -- this concerns him a little. Still, with the new liner, foam, patchwork within reason, removal of main drain, and restoring most of the pvc's at the pump, he's charging hundreds less than the competition -- $2675. (By the way, I mis spoke earlier--plus I asked liner guy--there's only one incoming pipe that comes from underground with the water-valve that connects to the 2ndary skimmer basket, and then the one outgoing pipe that connects to/comes from the multi-port (not the sand filter as I reported) and returns the water to the pool -- and yes, my pump is far below sea level.
Janet, I ended up (with some angst) choosing the Santa Fay liner style from taraliners.com. How can you really know without seeing an installation? I even put the brochure on the bottom of the shallow end (water's still in there and not green, even after 12 days now) and stood on it but it was of no help. The liner guy also said a 20/20 mil for my pool is actually better than a 28/20 because the thicker the liner the less pliable it will be in all the nooks and crannies/where the walls and floor meet etc.; and the warranty (20 years pro-rated, two years full) is the same.

I'll let you know how it turns out, and no doubt will need some start up assistance as I try to balance the new water. I'm going to both use the backyard hose and run a longer hose from the front so I can fill it up as quickly as possible. I think I may just wait to chlorinate or add CYA until it's filled and the pump is running. I don't think the water will go crazy green in 2-3 days, especially when it will be on the colder side. Probably the first thing I should do is backwash, as I know there's debris in the pipes, then add half the CYA, add bleach, check the TA and pH and go from there.

All I can say is, how fortunate I am to have incurred this damage. This guy, too, was flabergasted that insurance is paying for replacement and not pro-rating or, at the very least, speaking with a pool person. I mean, his mouth dropped open and he was speechless. I feel a bit like I've won the lottery when, usually, I never win.

[Vinyl_Guy]

This is good news, he sounds like the right man for the job.

I had a feeling the right one wouldn't charge for the removal of the maindrain.

A couple of thoughts. The walls might be a masonite product rather then actual wood. But the concept is the same.

I suspect the construction of the pool is probably what we used to refer to as the "popular mechanics" design. Lots of these wood pools were built for many years and are fairly common. It's sort of a home owner's design that can be constructed out of materials purchase at a lumber yard, and with only a few pool specific items added. Coping/extrusion and the liner being the two biggest ones.

The biggest factor when replacing a liner with these pools is actually how it was orginally constructed. Many of these "wood wall" pools were constructed in a way that makes removing the water from them precarious sometimes. Essentially when the pool is first built it is filled with water and backfilled behind the walls at the same time. This is how the pool is able to be built out of wood walls, with less then adequate support . As the pressure of the water filling the liner reaches the areas of the walls, the back fill (dirt) is also added, thus equalizing the pressure. If the reverse were done, and the pool was backfilled with out the water in it, it would be too much pressure. The same goes with the water if the back fill isn't added.

Afterward the walls become much more stiffened with the addition of a deck. Especially if it's tied into some type of coping which is attached o the walls. It's the first liner replacement or the first time the pool looses a significant amount of water (off the shallow end) that how much strength the deck has given the walls, is known.

Let me ask you this:

Did he ask you to not drain the water out of the pool and to actually keep an eye not it, as he awaits the delivery of your liner?

Did he mention that there's a chance that re-filling the pool maybe needed to be done via trucked in water?

More importantly, how much water is in the pool now, and when is the estimated time of the replacement?

I ask because sometimes when water slips well below the middle height of a wood wall pool, "bending" or "bowing can happen. The middle of the longest stretches of wall are obviously the most vulnerable. Once this happens it's imperative to continue with the replacement as expediently as possible. Empty wood wall pools are not good to have in that condition for long periods. Some hold up fine, some "bow" a little each time water gets below the walls, whether through a leak or liner replacement. It's best to keep water in the pool right up to the day the liner is being replaced. The shortest amount of time the pool is void of water, is what an installer should be shooting for. Unless he know the pools ability to hold it's own with out water in it.

Since your pool has had a liner replacement at some point we know it has withstood being empty at least once. Which is a darn good sign.

As far as a 20/20 vs. a 28/20 he is correct, 20 mill walled liners do conform more easily to variations. Are the corners of your pool (the actual dimensional corners or "shape"), wide sweeping arcs or closer to 90 degree corners with perhaps a small "clip" or short 45 degree angled section? Because this is where a 20 mill walled liner is most effective in getting a better fit, via it's stretching. If the actual corners of your pool aren't arcing corners, and more abrupt it probably is the better choice.

The only draw back to a 20 mil wall is the fact that (not commonly known), a liner most often fails above the water line. Due to UV damage and chemicals gathering on the surface. Between these two factors and the liner not staying as elastic from not being underwater are the biggest reason for failure. That was the reason for the thicker wall but yet not a thicker "floor". It's not a huge factor, and liners for years were all 20 (20/20). Hence the equivalent warranty. I think it was more of "upgrade" type marketing move by the liner manufacturers. Would I recommend one , sure , thicker is always better for the walls, but if it would have hampered a proper and correct installation, I would never opt for one, nor recommend one.

Any whoo........ just a few more thing to consider now that we know more about what's going on. Nothing bad, just more info imparted to you via this forum.

Good Luck.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Any news?

The anticipation is killing me......

[elsie]

Umm, some things I can answer and others I can't. He did not ask me to not drain the rest of the water, but as he was leaving I asked him to please give me a two-day head's up that he was coming to replace the liner as I would then drain it. I've read here before that it's not the best of ideas to leave a pool empty, liner notwithstanding. Also, since I daily blow the deck off from mother nature's bounties, I thought it a safer thing to leave some water in it. It hasn't happened often, but at least several times over the last 6 years I have inadvertently fallen into the pool, usually when in a hurry blowing the deck off and cutting the rounded corners too quickly or, once, in the winter when it was covered and I cut a corner too close and fell ON TOP OF the cover (I bolted off just as fast).

In any event, we had a big rain event so that filled the water back up to the return jets…Still haven't heard from the liner guy so yesterday called his office and was met with one very discourteous staff. Seemed I was putting her out asking her when she thought my liner might go in. "Well, it takes two weeks just to get it in" to which I replied "umm, Tara's website insists they deliver within 3-4 days…" then "well you know we've had a lot of rain…" In truth, we've had one rain event that lasted two days. You'd think it would take more energy to be nasty/uncooperative than to simply be genuine, and courteous. I don't get customer service these days, but then I don't get a lot of things anymore.

I'm getting concerned because leaves are starting to fall. While the big oaks shouldn't come down until October, even November here, there's enough smaller trees that have begun. The schemer in me is thinking why can't I have the liner put in, and virtually cover it with my solid winter cover right away? I can add CYA and bleach under the cover through the skimmer, and take water samples as well (either at the skimmer or even the 2ndary skimmer basket at the pump -- heck, it's all the same recirculating water). With the cover on to block out UV and the pump running continuously, does anyone see any flaws in my plan? It should hold chlorine quite well because it's covered, even as I do the incremental CYA dosing/checking. Of course I will put just enough bleach in to raise it to 2 ppm until that CYA starts to show up in testing and then re-chlorinate appropriately. However, with this new liner I'm not going to shock and immediately cover for the winter anymore as that high shock level remains the same month after month. From now on I will shock and then let the CL level fall back down to 5 or so and then monitor throughout the winter (I don't officially close my pool, just cover and run the pump when the temps drop below freezing). I do *not* want to jeopardize the brand spanking new liner pattern!

[Vinyl_Guy]

Must have missed your post sorry. I don't know how, I actually posted somewhere else before now, and after your last post.

Don't remove any water from the pool unless he specifically asks you to do so on his "authority". Certainly don't offer to do so again.

If the pool collapses before he's even on site the additional repair costs are that much harder to possibly make his responsibility. See what I'm getting at? What if he get's delayed? An unforeseen (knock on wood I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone) tragedy (car accident, death in the family), and he's not able to start the job that day. Now the pool is empty for that prolonged period your trying to avoid.

If he has insurance to cover some sort of catastrophic failure not covered in the contract, it's probably reliant on him causing the damage. So having you drain the water out of the pool not on his authority might not avail yourself to that coverage. A good gasoline powered "trash pump" can empty your pool in under 2 hours. With other things to do on the job it's not a big deal if the water is in the pool when he arrives. You can unload the truck, work on your pump and filter systems, read the paper if you have to.

As far as how to close it other then the traditional methods because of the timing of the replacement I couldn't say. I wouldn't even begin to pretend I have close to the expertise about chemicals and water clarity of other posters. They are light years ahead of me in that department.

[elsie]

They advised me Friday to get it empty for liner replacement starting tomorrow. I had pool cover pumps running continuously since Friday night and it finally emptied overnight last night but of course the pumps couldn't get rid of the last two inches, so this morning spent two hours (got to work late) using a wet vac to pull out the last of it in the deep end (had to haul many buckets up and out as my wet vac's only about 5 gallons).

It IS interesting to see the old liner's sides -- they've bubbled out and wrinkles are everywhere. I've done what I was supposed to do -- they said it had to be "bone dry" when they come tomorrow. I hope my aching back is for good reason, as we now have a 50% chance of rain tomorrow. Umm...I can only hope it doesn't rain and this project gets completed over the next two days and then I figure 3-4 days to fill with two hoses going into it and maybe I can get it covered before Ike plays with our weather early next week. Not to mention the new worry of the walls collapsing. If that happens to hell with it, I'm going to have holes punched in it and have it filled in with dirt and plant an herb garden, complete with surrounding walkway (f/k/a The Pool Deck).

I tested my tap water last night and the pH is not crazy low at all, in fact the bleach may very well raise it to where it should be. The TA is 120 which is fine and good. So I'm confident I can add CYA and chlorine with the cover on and do fine -

[Vinyl_Guy]

I hope he knocked a few dollars off the price for having you empty it for him. It's not a huge deal if it's not done, but it does save some hassles in the morning when you show up on the job. Like the ones you performed.

If the walls where going to go any time soon they would have when the water was emptied. It actually helps to remove the water very slowly as you did. You should be fine. Although I usually put a string line on them prior to emptying just to see if the they "bowed" a little. Sometimes they will bow a little then go back into place once the pool is refilled with water.

Good Luck......

[elsie]

Apparently he does not empty pool for customers, but that's okay, a slower drain precluded massive property flooding!

The Liner IS IN! He didn't know how much patching of floor and lower walls would be necessary - as it turned out, he needed to trowel all entirely (a vermiculite mixture that looks like cement but is soft) for which he charged $450 extra. When my mouth fell open, he said he usually charges $1250 for it, and I respectfully said "two guys, two or three hours, $1250???" Even the $450 seemed a bit out of line to me, but he said go google it and you'll find $450 is a good deal...I can't believe the product cost that much? The floor and lower walls were just bare concrete with HUGE divits everywhere. Of course they were all fixed and he also gave the various lines more definition (like that ridge in the shallow end before it transitions down).

As soon as they finished the troweling, the winds kicked up and it looked like rain any moment. I said that if the winds got brutal as they often do tons of pine straw and other debris would be dumped onto their work and he said it would undo it, so he and his helper quickly put the new liner in. I swear, it took less than 10 minutes! Amazing! Then the rains came, what a close call that was. He duct-taped a big vacuum hose to the inside of the new liner, put my two garden hoses in and said when it reached a point where he put a sticker on the wall, to stop the water (only a foot or so in the shallow end) until he came back yesterday, and told me that if my circuit breaker were to cut off power to the vac, we'd have to drain and start over. It quickly took care of all the wrinkles and I must say, I was relieved when he came back yesterday morning and turned the thing off -- it was loud! He also fixed all the piping at the pump yesterday - which only took about 15 minutes.

I estimated that about midnight last night the water would be to the skimmer so I set my alarm, and I was right on target. With the excitement of a child I stood out at the pump and flipped the switch but alas, the pump motor was seized up. I returned to bed very disappointed. Fortunately, he's out there right now seeing if he can unseize it. As he said, it worked fine a couple of weeks ago, he probably just needs to take the band off and get it going...

I must say, I'm not in love with the liner -- and I'm so glad I didn't go even darker. It's much darker than the online Tara sample -- it's a true blue. I actually miss the aqua color. I wonder why none of the Tara samples had the aqua color? Frankly, I wouldn't mind having a pattern-less liner that was light blue. At night, even with my pool perimeter lights on as well as my floods, I can't see the water it's so dark. Also, all the seams are quite visible. Oh well, it's a new liner and I didn't pay for it!

He also scolded me for using the bleach method -- long story, but I defended it. I do now know though that I was keeping my bleach way too high. He insisted I should keep it between 1-3 ppm, but if I'm losing 3 ppm each full sun day, that means it would have zero chlorine at some point in the day. I'm thinking I should thus keep it at 5 ppm? I'll aim for a CYA of 50. This liner has a 20-year warranty (limited or pro-rated I believe) and I'd sure like it to last 15 years. He also said that the bleaching of a liner DOES compromise the integrity of it -- he said the vinyl has lots of pores just like our skin, and if you're bleaching the liner out then it's also irreversibly wearing it.

I know one thing, I'm not going to shock and cover this weekend. Algae won't grow with a cover on it, so I'll cover it with a low ppm and just check it occasionally over the next 8 months...