BBB Method Challenged !

[elsie]

Ok, I've drafted a response. My intention isn't to be contentious or nasty, he's just a guy doing his thing, and who am I to challenge him as a mod, but I do feel compelled to defend the BBB method. Thanks for your input, and do let me know if it's not okay to 'borrow' your analyses for incorporation into my response. I'll check back in tomorrow morning when I get to work, and if no objections (or you impart any additional information you think I should include), I'll post this in the handymanwire.com forum:

"You are adding 16 gallons monthly? (if a "jug" is a gallon) That's 40 pounds of table salt! per month!! It's no wonder that the TA raises with the 11 average salt pH."

Yep. What's wrong with salt? What's in sodium hypochlorite? How much salt's used in running a salt-water generator? You need bags and bags of sea salt to raise the salt level high enough (a couple hundred lbs.). What's the difference between pool-store liquid chlorine and household bleach (other than the price)?

"Shock is used for oxidizing, yes, BUT it also removes by-products left by bodies, nature and chemicals. If you choose to avoid shocking you can expect unpleasant pool scents, oil slicks and red eyes if the pool is family used. A truly used family pool should be shocked every other week during the season for bather's comfort."

When I need to shock my pool as determined by whether or not I have combined chlorine, I simply add more liquid household bleach commensurate to my CYA level, which in my case is 15 ppm. "Shock" is more aptly defined as a verb, as in "to shock" rather than a noun, or product. Regular maintenance chlorination removes all the yuk one needs to remove, unless that chlorine becomes locked up in which case one needs to shock. Unless I have combined chlorine--which in my low bather pool is seldom, and usually after a plethora of organics have entered it due to heavy rains--there are no chlorine odors emanating from my water (a sign of CC), no red eyes and no irritation.

"For algae control it [polyquat] is nearly worthless but it is a great bug remover."
Expensive one at that.

"Chlorine NEVER clears algae. Filters or water removal clears dead algae."
Let me clarify: chlorine kills live algae for the filter system to then remove.

"It is assumed by many people inside and outside the industry that chlorine is an algae control chemical. Chlorine is used for controlling bacteria. If you ask it to do more then that you are stretching its abilities. Keep in mind that chlorine is based in salt (chloride) and that algae loves salt water. Algae grows to the world's largest plant on the floor the ocean. (salt water)"

Stretching its abilities? That's ludicrious. The prescription to kill an algae bloom in one's pool is to bring the water up to shock level and maintain it there until the algae is killed, regardless of what type of chlorine is used. Those who learn the BBB method and are advised to use liquid chlorine, or household bleach, at shock levels witness very rapid transformation of the water over the course of days. The algae in pools differs from algae in seawater. Saline is antiseptic--it's used in sinuses to make them a more hostile environment for viruses and bacteria. Chlorine is a broad-spectrum poison. Enough of it will kill anything.

"By the way, if pool shock was for killing algae why is chlorine-free shock made?"

I mis-spoke when I said I never had a green pool. I had forgotten that in my first year of pool ownership I took the advice of the pool store and used chlorine-free shock. It did not work, and my pocketbook was considerably lighter.

"Also, every gallon of chlorine (bleach or pool stuff) has 2.5 pounds of table salt. Actual salt has a pH of around 13. The pH scale is a Logarithmic scale. That means the difference between 7.4 and 8.0 is not .6 it is dozens of times higher. 13 is miles high!!"

Lots of people swear by their salt-water generators. And lots and lots of salt is dumped into their water.

"1) Keep chlorine in your pool always"
Absolutely!

"2) Shock every other week during the season and 1 time monthly off-season"
Wasted $ if you don't have combined chlorine.

"3) Add algaecide every other week"
No need to break the bank with algaecide if chlorine is regularly and properly used.

"4) Keep your pH 7.4 to 7.6"
Of course.

[waste]

Elsie, go get 'em!!!

There are a number of things I wanted to comment on , but I'll stick to 3 for now:

It's NOT!! the same as dumping 40 lbs of table salt into the pool, table salt had iodine added to it by law in ~ the 20's to help prevent goiters - bleach does not have iodine or anything else added to it. Also the amount of salt in a gallon of sodium chloride is dependent upon it's % strength - a 1 gal bottle of 12.5% has ~ 3 lbs salt, therefore would have less than 1.5 lbs salt (unless the bleach makers are using sea water to dilute the product, in which case, the bleach would have > 5 lbs of salt per gallon. )

Don't worry about taking on a mod, they may have the ability to ban you and delete your posts, but if you are polite (ish) and right, and post the facts - they shouldn't be able to touch you (and if they banned you for telling the truth, is it really a site you want to be a member of...)

If this dude really wants to talk with someone who quasi-knows this stuff - direct him to me: was.ted@comcast.net (I check my e-mails ~ 3X a month... but patience is a virtue ) I'm in the same business as he is (20 years) and finally!! figured out how pools SHOULD be maintained!

Please keep us informed on how this goes, or if i should log on to that site and 'talk' to him

[waterbear]

or if i should log on to that site and 'talk' to him

I, for one, think you should!!!!!!!!

[CarlD]

Else,

Use whatever you want--they are already plagiarizing me--that means quoting me without citing me.

But they are a small site and there are lots of websites filled with nuts on every topic from quilting to archery to politics to pool maintenance. I'm sure there's a site that does nothing but extol the virtues of chlorine-free swimming and makes chlorine out to be the chem of the devil. My mother has a neighbor like that--believes chlorine is evil, cooking is bad for you and threw out her stove.

Pass out the tin-foil hats!!!!

[waterbear]

Else,

Use whatever you want--they are already plagiarizing me--that means quoting me without citing me.

Are you referring to me? I said:

We are talking about 5 minutes a day or less for pool care here!

It's not exactly the same as your 'stay ahead of your water'!
(and I said NOTHING about the 'shot glass method nor did I try to sell a tin foil hat!)

[CarlD]

Are you referring to me? I said:

We are talking about 5 minutes a day or less for pool care here!

It's not exactly the same as your 'stay ahead of your water'!
(and I said NOTHING about the 'shot glass method nor did I try to sell a tin foil hat!)

Actually, no. It was a longer and more direct quote of a couple of paragraphs--and it wasn't by you....

But just 'cuz yer paranoid.....(you know the rest)!

[elsie]

Waste: go at it if so inclined to add injury to injury!

Waterbear: outstanding job, your post in HMW obviates any need for me to post (and far exceeds any science/chemistry I could've provided)!

Carl: thanks!

And, thank you all. BBB method ROCKS. But we already knew that.

[waterbear]

I joined that forum and answered. couldn't let BS like that go unanswered!
I don't think it gets a lot of traffic. We shall see what happens.