BBB Method Challenged !

[elsie]

The other day I saw a post in the pool forum of handymanwire.com by a guy asking about the BBB method, and thought I'd respond. But in so doing, I apparently both stepped on the toes of the moderator, a pool store owner, and incurred his very weighted objections to the BBB method. Bascially I reiterated the basics of the method and I posted links to this site as well as troublefreepools.com, not being sure if folks can register here as new members or not to post questions.

The entire thread can be found at this link:

http://www.handymanwire.com/ubbthrea...e=0#Post741814

My response to the poster's query re: the BBB method is below, followed by the response of the pool store owner and moderator of the pool forum at handymanwire.com.

As an aside, perhaps I did mis-speak when I said CYA level cannot be ascertained if the water's green -- this is just something I assumed because the nature of the test is to observe when the gray dot disappears. I've never had green water hence have never had to test green water in the CYA tube so it was just an assumption. It is more noteworthy, however, to read the moderator's position on using bleach in one's pool. I would love to get some responses to his response here. Of particular interest to me is his assertion that one needs to shock one's pool on a regular basis, *not* just when there's combined chlorine. If that's the case, why bother testing for CC -- why not just shock every other week? For the record, I don't have chlorine odors or red eyes or irritation as he indicates would be the case for a pool that's not shocked every other week at a minimum. Also of concern is his position that chlorine does not control algae growth! And, what's wrong with the salt in chlorine? It makes my water nice and soft…

I probably cannot respond to his questions for me in his response post, simply because I am just a common person with no science background, but if any of the excellent mods/chem wizards here would like to respond on my behalf I'd be glad to copy and paste that response, or portions of multiple responses (with quotes and any signature desired) in handymanwire.com. Now that I've opened this door so to speak, I hate to not respond, but, either way, I'd be so glad to get some responses from the mods on this forum to the pool store owner's response.

* * *

ME (ELSIE/WATERFALL):

It really depends on your CYA level which will be impossible to ascertain if your water's green. But you need to add a lot and keep adding it to maintain at shock level for a number of days, if not a week or beyond. However, within a week you will see a substantial transformation. I would suggest you check out poolforum.com and/or troublefreepools.com and read the "stickies" for beginners and then read the posts and then post your questions for the mods to answer if you have them. Not sure if you can still register as a new user at poolforum.com as the administrator has been MIA for a couple of years, but there's still a wealth of information at the site. Troublefreepools.com was started for this reason and is highly recommended.

I've been following the BBB method for 5 of the 6 years I've owned my property with inherited pool, and I have saved countless trips to the pool store (never need to go unless I need a mechanical item such as an O-Ring or new vacuum head) and tons of money on chems that simply are not needed and, in fact, often contribute to a viscious cycle of adding one thing to correct the mess another thing caused).

In my case, I add a half jug of 6% household, nonscented bleach to my pool each night. I only need to test a few times a week because I know my pool so well, and since I only need to test for chlorine/free chlorine (along with pH which kit I get at Walmart each new season) and CYA once or twice a season (generally when I open and close), I spend only about $30 each season on test reagents (I do not need to buy the full spectrum kit). Testing takes a mere minute or two and is just as reliable as at the pool store.

Polyquat (Jim's right on when he tells you what kind to get), in my experience at least, is unnecessary. It will not clear up an algae bloom, by the way. I never use it, and I open to sparkling clear water each May. Only chlorine, and lots of it, will clear up algae. I only shock when my testing reveals combined chlorine (CC). Since I am virtually the only swimmer I rarely need to shock, maybe a couple of times a season after a heavy rain and then certainly when I cover in the fall. There is no need to shock on a regular basis -- only when you have CC do you need to shock, assuming you have the correct reagents to test for same. For those who rely on the test strips (a/k/a idiot strips), then they will need to shock on a regular basis because test strips cannot reveal CC, and they will never know if they have it.

One keeps a free chlorine level commensurate with one's CYA/stabilizer level which optimal level is, depending on how much sunlight your pool gets, in the 30-50 ppm range. Higher than that and you just need to keep upping your chlorine level to effectively sanitize (there is no such thing as a nonstabilized puck and used long enough, your CYA level will go through the ceiling).

At the pool forums mentioned above, you can learn about all this, and there are charts to guide you as to your CYA level and what chlorine level you should maintain, how much bleach to put into your pool for any desired ppm, and to what level you should shock your pool when necessary. I personally like to run my chlorine a little higher, and by the way, have no problem swimming in even 15 ppm if I have recently shocked. It just doesn't bother me.

The only other thing I need to add to my pool is a cup or two of muriatic acid every couple of weeks as my pH tends to creep up. Some seasons my alkalinity (TA) runs around 100 and some past years 160, and has never caused an issue with cloudiness, so I don't even test for it any more. Since adopting the BBB method I never have algae and my water's not been cloudy even once. It's perpetually clear and sparkling. Simplicity at its best.

HANDYMANWIRE MODERATOR:

Waterfall,

Thank you for your input. As a moderator I want the readers to have a clear understanding. I do have a couple of questions for you.

"It really depends on your CYA level which will be impossible to ascertain if your water's green"
Are you saying that you can't test the stabilizer if the water is green?
"I add a half jug of 6% household, nonscented bleach to my pool each night"
You are adding 16 gallons monthly? (if a "jug" is a gallon) That's 40 pounds of table salt! per month!! It's no wonder that the TA raises with the 11 average salt pH.
"I only shock when my testing reveals combined chlorine (CC). Since I am virtually the only swimmer I rarely need to shock, maybe a couple of times a season after a heavy rain and then certainly when I cover in the fall. There is no need to shock on a regular basis -- only when you have CC do you need to shock,"
Shock is used for oxidizing, yes, BUT it also removes by-products left by bodies, nature and chemicals. If you choose to avoid shocking you can expect unpleasant pool scents, oil slicks and red eyes if the pool is family used. A truly used family pool should be shocked every other week during the season for bather's comfort.
"Polyquat (Jim's right on when he tells you what kind to get), in my experience at least, is unnecessary." For algae control it is nearly worthless but it is a great bug remover.
"Only chlorine, and lots of it, will clear up algae." Chlorine NEVER clears algae. Filters or water removal clears dead algae.
It is assumed by many people inside and outside the industry that chlorine is an algae control chemical. Chlorine is used for controlling bacteria. If you ask it to do more then that you are stretching its abilities. Keep in mind that chlorine is based in salt (chloride) and that algae loves salt water. Algae grows to the world's largest plant on the floor the ocean. (salt water)
I have NEVER used a clarifier in 22+ years in the business. No need!
Poly-Quat combined with lots of chlorine AND constant filtration will kill and remove algae blooms but the algae will come back. If you use chlorine as an algaecide you will eventually create a strain of algae that will darn near ignore your chlorine. By the way, if pool shock was for killing algae why is chlorine-free shock made?
Algaecide is a maintenance item not a "wait until I see it" chemical.
I can run my uncovered pool for 2-3 months in the winter without chlorine by using the Pool Frog or a copper based algaecide. I do not recommend this but I use my own pool to experiment. Algae feeds on the copper and dies so it does not mater if your chlorine is low. FOR THE GUYS .... more is not better. Follow the dosage rates.

Also, every gallon of chlorine (bleach or pool stuff) has 2.5 pounds of table salt. Actual salt has a pH of around 13. The pH scale is a Logarithmic scale. That means the difference between 7.4 and 8.0 is not .6 it is dozens of times higher. 13 is miles high!!

If you want a perfect pool (after the start-up)
1) Keep chlorine in your pool always
2) Shock every other week during the season and 1 time monthly off-season
3) Add algaecide every other week
4) Keep your pH 7.4 to 7.6

BTW 2 and 3 do not apply to those that drain the pool down to winterize

--------------------
Ken Lewis
Pool Remodeling

[waterbear]

Well, the guy who runs thatforum is a PB. I have met and talked with many PBs and even had to blow the whistle on one more than once because of how they were setting up a very popular SWG and I was getting a lot of customers with black algae and other problems! The manufacurter of this SWG was very quick in setting up training for them (not that it does much good, IMHO.)
Anyway I am rambling. My pointis while PBs know how to build and repair pools most are TOTALLY clueless when it comes to basic water chemistry and pool care. Look how many of them 'slug' acid to lower TA and 'walk' acid to lower pH even though that was disproved in the JSPSI many years ago! (And THIS forum has the proper way to lower TA!)

Consider the source. Or better yet, ask them how they feel about clorinating with sodium hypochlorite and if they say it's not a good thing ask them why so many commercial installations use it almost exclusively for chlorination and shocking! Then ask then how liquid chlorine and laundry bleach are different besides the strength!

I LOVE the part where he said 'actual salt has a pH of arounde 13'! This guy obviously has never had a chem course in his life!!!!!!! Salt has a pH of 7 when dissolved in water and no pH when in solid form! (pH is a property of solutions.)
THIS is a prime example of why the method on here works and the junk this guy is pusing doesn't! What is on here is based on scientific facts. What he is pushing is based on BS and ignorance!

[CarlD]

I, too, had to laugh at his nonsense! "You're adding 40 lbs of salt a year!"

So?

You need a LOT more salt than that just to run a salt-water generator. You need bags and bags of the 80lb sea salt just to get it high enough. (I don't even know if his calculation of how much salt it is is correct).

BTW, you all know I use bleach or LC pretty much all the time--at least 90% and have for 6 years now. I also have a salt-water test kit (Taylor via Leslies) and the HIGHEST my salt level was, was 1600, after 2 80 lb bags of salt dissolved in it (I was trying to use them to hold my drop in steps down).

His argument about algae and seawater is nonsense--different species of algae. The algae in pools tends to NOT like salt water... Saline is classically antiseptic--that's why "Ocean" is good when you feel a cold coming on--the saline squirted up your sinuses makes them a more hostile environment for viruses and bacteria. Cruise ships make drinking water at sea by desalination--but you can't do it in harbor or in fresh water rivers. That's because deep sea water, desalinated, is clean. That's also why you can eat sushi from fish that never go near fresh water, like tuna and yellowtail, but salmon MUST be smoked first.

His argument about chlorine not killing algae is is truly insane. What chlorine is, is ultimately a broad-spectrum poison. Enough of it will kill anything. Anything. It ain't DDT--it's a fundamental element that's lethally toxic--you can't build a resistance to it, even by evolution.

I hope you had fun trading quips with this poor, ignorant soul, who's just trying to sell pool chems so he can make $$$$$!

[elsie]

Ok, I've drafted a response. My intention isn't to be contentious or nasty, he's just a guy doing his thing, and who am I to challenge him as a mod, but I do feel compelled to defend the BBB method. Thanks for your input, and do let me know if it's not okay to 'borrow' your analyses for incorporation into my response. I'll check back in tomorrow morning when I get to work, and if no objections (or you impart any additional information you think I should include), I'll post this in the handymanwire.com forum:

"You are adding 16 gallons monthly? (if a "jug" is a gallon) That's 40 pounds of table salt! per month!! It's no wonder that the TA raises with the 11 average salt pH."

Yep. What's wrong with salt? What's in sodium hypochlorite? How much salt's used in running a salt-water generator? You need bags and bags of sea salt to raise the salt level high enough (a couple hundred lbs.). What's the difference between pool-store liquid chlorine and household bleach (other than the price)?

"Shock is used for oxidizing, yes, BUT it also removes by-products left by bodies, nature and chemicals. If you choose to avoid shocking you can expect unpleasant pool scents, oil slicks and red eyes if the pool is family used. A truly used family pool should be shocked every other week during the season for bather's comfort."

When I need to shock my pool as determined by whether or not I have combined chlorine, I simply add more liquid household bleach commensurate to my CYA level, which in my case is 15 ppm. "Shock" is more aptly defined as a verb, as in "to shock" rather than a noun, or product. Regular maintenance chlorination removes all the yuk one needs to remove, unless that chlorine becomes locked up in which case one needs to shock. Unless I have combined chlorine--which in my low bather pool is seldom, and usually after a plethora of organics have entered it due to heavy rains--there are no chlorine odors emanating from my water (a sign of CC), no red eyes and no irritation.

"For algae control it [polyquat] is nearly worthless but it is a great bug remover."
Expensive one at that.

"Chlorine NEVER clears algae. Filters or water removal clears dead algae."
Let me clarify: chlorine kills live algae for the filter system to then remove.

"It is assumed by many people inside and outside the industry that chlorine is an algae control chemical. Chlorine is used for controlling bacteria. If you ask it to do more then that you are stretching its abilities. Keep in mind that chlorine is based in salt (chloride) and that algae loves salt water. Algae grows to the world's largest plant on the floor the ocean. (salt water)"

Stretching its abilities? That's ludicrious. The prescription to kill an algae bloom in one's pool is to bring the water up to shock level and maintain it there until the algae is killed, regardless of what type of chlorine is used. Those who learn the BBB method and are advised to use liquid chlorine, or household bleach, at shock levels witness very rapid transformation of the water over the course of days. The algae in pools differs from algae in seawater. Saline is antiseptic--it's used in sinuses to make them a more hostile environment for viruses and bacteria. Chlorine is a broad-spectrum poison. Enough of it will kill anything.

"By the way, if pool shock was for killing algae why is chlorine-free shock made?"

I mis-spoke when I said I never had a green pool. I had forgotten that in my first year of pool ownership I took the advice of the pool store and used chlorine-free shock. It did not work, and my pocketbook was considerably lighter.

"Also, every gallon of chlorine (bleach or pool stuff) has 2.5 pounds of table salt. Actual salt has a pH of around 13. The pH scale is a Logarithmic scale. That means the difference between 7.4 and 8.0 is not .6 it is dozens of times higher. 13 is miles high!!"

Lots of people swear by their salt-water generators. And lots and lots of salt is dumped into their water.

"1) Keep chlorine in your pool always"
Absolutely!

"2) Shock every other week during the season and 1 time monthly off-season"
Wasted $ if you don't have combined chlorine.

"3) Add algaecide every other week"
No need to break the bank with algaecide if chlorine is regularly and properly used.

"4) Keep your pH 7.4 to 7.6"
Of course.

[waste]

Elsie, go get 'em!!!

There are a number of things I wanted to comment on , but I'll stick to 3 for now:

It's NOT!! the same as dumping 40 lbs of table salt into the pool, table salt had iodine added to it by law in ~ the 20's to help prevent goiters - bleach does not have iodine or anything else added to it. Also the amount of salt in a gallon of sodium chloride is dependent upon it's % strength - a 1 gal bottle of 12.5% has ~ 3 lbs salt, therefore would have less than 1.5 lbs salt (unless the bleach makers are using sea water to dilute the product, in which case, the bleach would have > 5 lbs of salt per gallon. )

Don't worry about taking on a mod, they may have the ability to ban you and delete your posts, but if you are polite (ish) and right, and post the facts - they shouldn't be able to touch you (and if they banned you for telling the truth, is it really a site you want to be a member of...)

If this dude really wants to talk with someone who quasi-knows this stuff - direct him to me: was.ted@comcast.net (I check my e-mails ~ 3X a month... but patience is a virtue ) I'm in the same business as he is (20 years) and finally!! figured out how pools SHOULD be maintained!

Please keep us informed on how this goes, or if i should log on to that site and 'talk' to him

[waterbear]

or if i should log on to that site and 'talk' to him

I, for one, think you should!!!!!!!!

[waterbear]

I joined that forum and answered. couldn't let BS like that go unanswered!
I don't think it gets a lot of traffic. We shall see what happens.

[aylad]

That's an interesting thread, also find it interesting that so far nobody has attempted to refute Waterbear's posts!

Janet

[waterbear]

That's an interesting thread, also find it interesting that so far nobody has attempted to refute Waterbear's posts!

Janet

Kind of hard to refute the truth. When science is on your side no amount of BS will stand up to it!

[CarlD]

Kind of hard to refute the truth. When science is on your side no amount of BS will stand up to it!

Tough Jersey boy!

Millburn is right around the corner from me--I live in Livingston, but almost in East Hanover and Roseland.