Ascorbic treatment

[essikr]

I tried the ascorbic treatment and everything looked great . I brought the alkalinity up with soda and the PH up with borax. Looked good for a week and now the stain is back almost as bad as when I started. The water read is
PH 6,9 ,Alk 110,Cal hd 200,copper 5, CYA 120, chl .5. There can't be much of my heat exchanger left ! It looks like the sequa-sol either wasn't enough or didn't work well.Is there a better sequestor to use??With that much copper in the water is there any way to get it out? Will adding sequestor be a rountine ?

Thanks Marie for your help the pool looked really great after the initial treatment. Sure would like to get it like that again and keep it that way.

[szampino]

Regarding your Numbers: PH 6,9 ,Alk 110,Cal hd 200,copper 5, CYA 120, chl .5

I'm not a forum expert but:

Your PH is too low and may be harmful to your pool. Raise it to at least 7.0 to be on the safer' side. 7.0 is also a good number to target for shocking with metals. After you get your metals under control you could maintain it at the 7.2 range.

Your CYA is going to require you to 'Shock' at about FC 25ppm. (this may be a problem with metals and Sequestering, I'm not sure at what point the Sequestering Agents breakdown)

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

Your cl number doesn't give me enough information. This forum looks at chlorine as FC + CC = TC. FC='Good Chlorine' and CC='Bad Chlorine', TC is just how much Chlorine is at the party.

**I also took a brief look at your other Posts to see how you got to this point but coudn't find any background. So I'm not sure what your water looked like before, and what you did prior to the AA treatment.

[mbar]

szampino is right. You need to keep your chlorine level at a minimum of 8ppms with a cya of 120. You may want to drain some of your water and refill to get your cya at a better level. You can drain down 1/3, add more water and repeat until you get your cya at about 50. Then I would suggest you get your ph to 7.0 - 7.2. Add more sequestering agent. Sequasol is good, Jack's Magic is good, so is Proteams Metal Magic, also Metal Free, Water warehouse metal out are all good, I have used them all. When you get the ph to 7.0, add the sequestering agent - add more than the bottle says - it should lighten the stain without having to do the ascorbic acid treatment again. You probably didin't have enough sequestering agent in the water to keep the metals from falling out. Sometimes it takes a lot of the agent to accomplish this task. If you add the sequestering agent and after a couple of days to a week, the stains are still there, then add a little more ascorbic acid. Just go around the edge of the pool and then let it circulate for a while. It should take the stain right off. You can then start to raise the chlorine back to level you need for your cya. Just make sure there is enough sequestering agent in there before you use the ascorbic acid. I also suggest that you raise the chlorine with bleach, so that you can do it slowly till you get to the chlorine level you need. Feel free to ask any other questions you have.

[essikr]

Thanks to both of you for the prompt reply. I left alot of info out ,sorry.
The pool is 15 years old 16X32 approx.23,000 gal.,still on the original vinyl liner. I started on Bauqasil when it was new and switched to chlorine 7 years later (glad) . Added a heater 3 years ago. I have had very few water problems using the baking soda and borax. I use bleach when I open the pool and a chlorinator with 1" tabs during the season.
When I opened the pool this spring the liner,steps ,etc were stained a brown rust color bad.Brushing did nothing to remove it.After reading your posts and information in the forum (great help). I ground some vit C tablets and tried it, the stain wiped right off. With help from the forum I determined the unbalanced water was eating the heat exchange and putting copper in the pool.I did the AA treatment several weeks ago and wow the pool looked great almost lke new(well almost) .I added the sequestor 2 qts of sequa-sol . Used bleach to bring the level up slow and the soda and borax for the PH and Alk.Everything looked good till this week and I noticed the stain coming back .We did have a family outing last week,lots of kids in the pool.The chlorine level was low so I added bleach to bring it up , I put a gallon in and the reading I took was 5-10 with my kit. It went down 2 days later. I was working on the PH and Alk when the stain started to re-appear. Never liked my hth test kit so I ordered a Taylor K-2006 kit. Using the new kit my numbers are FC 1,TC 1.5,CYA 120,TA 110,CH 210, PH 7.
I think you answered most of my questions and will be following your suggested route. It's not practical for me drain and add I'm on well water.
One thing,how does the CYA raise ? What is the range that is acceptable? Thanks again for all your help ,the forum is a great place to learn. I hope I can contribute with experiences I have had with my pool.

[mbar]

CYA, which is cyanuric acid is also called "stabilizer". It is also in trichlor pucks. That's why trichlor is called "stabilized chlorine". You can have it build up in your water over using the pucks, because the only way to get cya out of the water is to drain and refill. Usually over the winter you lose it due to the dilution of the water with rain and snow. It can also get eaten up by a really bad algae bloom. What is recommended on this forum is to keep your cya between 30 - 50. Chlorine becomes less effective with high cya. Here is a chart we use, called the "best guess chart":

Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

As you can see with a cya of 120, your minimum chlorine level should be at 8ppms. This is the level you need to really have your water sanitized. When you shock you will need to go to 25.

Hope this helps, ask any questions you have.

[waterbear]

A couple of observations:
first copper usually does not react well to ascorbic acid, especially the BROWN copper stains (the blue ones might but the bronw, grey and black usually won't).
second, you said you are on well water. Have you tested it for iron? I suspect that you have iron staining from your well!
I also suspect that the reason your copper levels are so high are linked to your use of trichlor.
first, is your clorinator before of after your heater? It should be after. If it is before it explains the high copper levels.
If it is after it means you have not been keeping tabs on your TA and pH because the only reason so much copper would dissolve is because your water was too acidic. This is fairly common with trichlor use.

Finally, even forgetting that your CYA is way too high YOU NEED TO DRAIN THAT POOL AND REFILL BECAUSE YOU HAVE 5 PPM COPPER IN THE WATER. THAT IS WAY TOO HIGH TO BE SWIMMING IN AND IT IS NOT HEALTHY. COPPER IS TOXIC, THAT IS WHY IT IS USED AS AN AGACIDE AND YOU HAVE ABOUT 16 TIMES THE ALGAESTATIC LEVEL IN YOUR WATER!!!
ANYTHING ABOUT 1 PPM IS TOO HIGH!

sorry for shouting but you really need to pay attention to that.
bite the bullet, drain and refill and treat your well water for the iron that I suspect actually caused your staining.

[essikr]

Thanks for the reply I will answer as best as I can.

I don't use the raw well water to make any adds,have an iron remover on the water system if I need to add. We are in Ohio and it seems we get enough rain to keep the pool level up. My winter cover is the safety type that lets water in.Usually have to put water out several times before pool open.
The chlorinator feeds after the heater.Sounds like I need to use only bleach.

The ascorbic acid removed the stain pretty quick.
I don't have a way to test for iron or copper .
Had it tested at two different stores ,one said the copper was 5, the other didn't list any. They may not have tested for it.
I beleived the stain was from iron when first detected and didn't put much trust in the test that said it was copper.
As an added note ,we live within a 1/2 mile of an operating steel mill.Though they have a dust collector system I'm sure we receive some pollution.We see the brown stain on some of our vinyl siding. Idea!! I never tried to take the stain off with Ascorbic acid. I will try it .
Looks like I need a test kit for metals? Need some advice on that.
Finally I would like to avoid a complete drain at this time. We had planned to replace our 18 year old liner in the fall.

[mbar]

eeek, I missed the 5 copper Waterbear is right, drain and refill. You may have other metals in your fill water, but they can be controlled with sequestering agent. You have to check the trichlor - a lot of it has copper in it now - it is used as an algaecide. Also with the trichlor it makes the water very acidic which can eat the copper element in a pool heater. Brown stains are ususally iron, which is very common in well water.

[mbar]

I was replying while you were typing It does sound like you may be getting the metals through the air. It does sound like iron. I think you will have to use a lot of sequestering agent - putting some in every week to maintain what is lost through backwashing and dilution. Is there a municipal water testing place you can take your water to? It can give you a more detailed list of what metals are in the water. I wouldn't trust a pool store that said you had a copper level of 5 and didn't say anything to you. You can live with a little staining, but a copper level of 5 would not be advised. If you are going to get one more year out of your liner, then just use the sequestering agent, and keep up with the stain with a little ascorbic acid every now and then. Just be sure to check out the copper. You also must keep an eye on the ph - ascorbic acid will lower the ph too.

[essikr]

Happy Fathers to all you Dads and to Moms that take Dads place!

Well I put some vit C tablets in a sock and tried it on the house vinyl siding, it removed 90% of the stain.I then wiped ( just a light rub) the pool step it removed the stain 100%anf the steo was pure white. Brushing and rubbing with a rag did nothing to the stain. I will follow all of your suggestions and keep a better eye on the water chemistry.
One question when I used my new K -2006 the FC=.8 CC=.2.
When I checked it with my old HTH delux test kit the TC= 8-10. Using my old kit I kept the level between at 5-8. This looks like it was misleading me to believe my level was good.

Still think it is iron and not copper!!!