Questions about replacing liner

[AndyT86]

Got my new liner, and have taken out the old one. Now I have a few questions before I proceed.

1. Algae, mold, or mildew on walls and floor beneath liner. Some is black and some is green. Should I just spray this with bleach before putting in the new liner? I've heard tales of a black algae behind the liner causing permanent stains, and I don't want this.

2. Filling the dimples in the vermiculite. Do I need to find some pool-krete for this, or is it okay to trowel sand in these spots? (I have a few bags of filter sand laying around, and was going to use that.)

3. Roots coming through slope in deep end. I cut these runners off and sprayed Ortho on the area to try to stunt the growth. Should I be concerned about this?

4. I bought new gaskets for Main Drain, Skimmer, light, and returns. PB placed the original gaskets on fitting behind the wall foam and liner. I was thinking they should go between liner and the outer plates. Please advise proper placement.

Thanks for the great advice I always get from this forum.

- Andy

[waste]

Andy, glad you've got the new liner! I'll answer the questions by #.
1 - I would pour bleach directly on any effected area and go ~ 1' past the visible stuff

2- I suppose that you could patch with sand, but it won't be a lasting patch. I think you'd be better off using some cement (and either sand or vermiculite as the aggregate).

3- We are mere humans and as such cannot stop the forces of nature - you've done about all you can for the roots. As a practical matter, I've never seen a root under a liner that was large enough to harm the liner (I think the pressure of the water in the pool tends to keep the roots 'at bay'.)

4- You are dealing with 2 different types of gaskets. The returns have a rubber gasket that should be behind the liner. The skimmers, lights and main drain have fiber (~cardboard) gaskets and there should be 2 for each one - they go behind and above the liner (the liner is sandwiched between the gaskets). For the ones that need to go under the liner, you can secure them with duct tape or spray adhesive before dropping the liner.

If you have any other questions on installing the liner, please feel free to ask! I've dropped well over 1000 liners (and then I picked them back up and installed them in the pools ) and may be able to give you a tip or 'trick' that would make it easier

[AndyT86]

Thanks, waste! I'm all about tips and tricks for making things go better.

The girl who sold me the gaskets recommended I clean the old parts (skimmer face, main drain, light ring, and return rings) using muriatic acid, rather than buying new parts. I bit, and after spending some time and elbow grease, have decided that they are still too yellow so I'm gonna buy new parts tomorrow. She only sold me one each of the fiber gaskets. Should I buy seconds when I get the new plates?

So far, I have not found a source for pool-krete that is open on the weekend. The store where I got the gaskets only orders it by the job for each pool they install. Is there a suitable substitute that I can get at the big box store (i.e., Lowe's)? How long does it need to cure before dropping the liner?

How long should it take me to drop the liner in? How many helpers should I have on hand? My pool is 16x32 Grecian, slightly deeper than the standard (I had to pay extra for the liner because of this). What I'm trying to figure out is if I can drop it after work one evening this week (I have about 2-1/2 hours of daylight left when I get home).

I have looked in the box but have not found any specific directions for dropping the liner, other than marking on the box that says to place the box at the deep end with a certain side facing the pool. I'm guessing that you start at the deep end, hanging the bead in the tracks as you work your way to the shallow end. I'm concerned here about placing the corners correctly. Is this when you start a shop vac pulling out the air behind the liner?

What order is best for making cuts? I have a Main Drain, Skimmer, Light, 2 returns plus a connection for my Kreepy, and the steps. I'm guessing that it's best to screw the plates down before cutting the liner. Is it okay to start adding water as soon as the MD ring is in place and cut?

What do you do with the old liner? Can it be recycled like all the bleach bottles? I hate to send it to the landfill if there is a better alternative.

Well, I've gotten a little long-winded... guess I'll wrap up the questions for now. Thanks again for the great advice!

- Andy

[waste]

Andy, if you think that was long winded, let me show you long winded

First let me apologize for the delay in answering - my dog had to go the the emergency vet on Sunday (she had had minor surgery last week and somehow managed to rip out her stitches) she was drugged up when we brought her home and was a risk to herself, so I was up almost all night keeping an eye on her, so only got a couple hours sleep. Still had to work a full 10 hours yesterday, so I was in no shape to answer last night.

OK, back to your pool-

If the gaskets that go behind the liner are still good, you wouldn't need new ones, if the liner is less than ~5 years old, they are probably still good. However, if any of them show signs of tearing or 'just don't look right' I'd recommend replacing them (better a few $ now than end up with a leak and have to partially drain the pool to replace those gaskets - if nothing else, the amount of work to replace the behind the liner gaskets covers the cost of new ones - on this line of thought - even if they look 'brand new' replace the MD and light gaskets - the skimmers require much less water removal and work to replace)

If you can't get vermiculite (pool grade) just use the sand you have. (the ratio is ~ 2 parts type I or II cement to 1 part sand or vermiculite [the ratio is by WEIGHT not volume!]) Watch the amount of water you use, more water makes it easier to mix, but it takes much longer to set up - also a 'slightly wetter' mix allows you to feather in the patches better (off the cuff - I'd say ~ 2X the weight in water as the cement -- water weighs ~ 7.8 lbs / gallon). To keep this from going waaayy too far into detail, just ask me if you've any questions about mixing methods - there's different methods and tools I use, depending on whether I'm using a powered mixer, a wheelbarrow, a 5 gal. bucket.

Unless you've dropped a bunch of liners, I doubt it could be done in under 2 1/2 hours, you are also doing this at the end of the day when the liner has the least amount of stretch (to clarify - the sun's rays aren't as strong and night will soon remove any extra 'plyibility') However, there is nothing wrong with doing the floor work one evening. The next evening you can sweep the floor 3X (!!) (you DO NOT WANT anything other than the floor under the liner!) -- something as small as a grain of sand can be felt if stepped on, will probably show up at night with the pool light on and WILL provide the first most probable place that the liner will fail -- also make sure that the walls are 'debris free' ! On that same evening have 3 other people help you 'rough drop' the liner, 1 person to hold each corner - the 2 in the deep end will only have to hold on to their part as the other 2 pull the liner across the pool. Position the box as they direct, and unpackage the liner on the centerline of the pool -- unroll it and unfold it -- it's 'fan folded'. As this will only be a 'rough set' - no vac's required - you don't have to be 'dead on' with how the corners fit. All you are trying to do on this is get the liner close to where it needs to be and tuck it into the track, this will allow the liner to relax a bit from being boxed and keep debris from getting under the liner onto your clean floor. Most liners have marks on the back of the liner to show the corners and the transition break (where the floor from the shallow end transitions to the slope for the deep end) - the marks are close, but not exact, so don't worry if they don't perfectly match up. It will probably turn out that there is a section that you can't get fully in - try to keep this in the shallow end - you'll want to see if anything did go behind the liner and it's SOOO much easier to check the shallow end!

What we always do with the old liner is toss it in the dumpster -- some people want sections of it for covering a woodpile - but most of it goes into the landfill

You probably noticed that I've left out the parts about getting the liner in 'perfectly and doing the cutting _ I'll leave that for tomorrow, especially since I don't know what kind of stairs you have (the fiberglass stairs are easier to do, but if you have steel stairs, I can help you do them correctly too) I think you're looking at starting the water on Saturday or Sunday. How will you be filling the pool (and have you tested the fill water to see whet chems you may need for an immediate start-up?

I hope that this is enough to get you started! A couple more Q&A by Friday should get you all set to have the liner in by the end of this weekend

[AndyT86]

Sorry to hear about the dog. I hope she comes through okay.

My stairs are fiberglass (glad to hear they will be easier!). I was able to get some pool-krete yesterday, and spent the whole day today patching. There was quite a bit that needed to be done, especially in the shallow end. The floor at the base of the stairs seemed to be loose vermiculite with little or no cement bonding it together. This is also where I had to patch the old liner on two different occasions (not sure if one caused the other). It was also like that around the edges of the shallow end. Makes me wonder if the PB got to the end of a batch in the mixer and used some dry pool-krete and water to finish out instead of mixing a full batch (he cut corners elsewhere, too). Very frustrating because I'm not used to working with the stuff, and was mixing small batches in a 5-gallon bucket. How long should I let the pool-krete cure before dropping the liner? I was thinking tomorrow after work I could hit any rough spots and maybe sweep/vacuum, and place bottom gaskets on skimmer, drain, and light. Don't know if I'll get to the rough drop before Thursday evening, but the forecasters are not showing any rain before Friday or Saturday, so I think I'm okay.

When placing the liner on the center line to unfold, is it okay to place the box on the diving board? Or do I need to remove the board while installing the liner? Where should I place the stronger helpers - holding at the deep end, or pulling to the shallow?

Am I over-analyzing this stuff? (It's something I tend to do!)

Our fill water is about 7.2 pH so I'm ready with my borax and will probably need some baking soda. I have some CYA and bleach on hand.

[waste]

Quick reply for tonight

The stronger 2 should do the pulling. The diving board is a perfect place for the liner - you do need to take the liner fully out of the box to unfold it.

I want to mention to wear soft soled shoes with no hard edges when walking on the floor, now that it's patched - and even with them, try to avoid walking on the patches. The patches should be set after 12 - 24 hours - but they are still not as set as the rest of the floor. When you sweep the floor, look for any little spots you may have missed when patching. Also, before sweeping the floor, be sure to clean the side walls of any debris -- you want the walls and floor to be as smooth and debris- free as possible!

Before putting in the 'under liner' gaskets on, make sure that the area they are going on is clean and smooth. Also check the stair gaskets and faceplates - they don't often need to be replaced, but if you see anything wrong with them, you could end up fighting a leak -- if you have a question about any of them, ask me and I'll give you a 'pro's' appraisal (pics would certainly! help )

We can go into getting the liner perfectly placed tomorrow and how to fill the pool and cut out the liner

[AndyT86]

Thanks for all the good suggestions!

A neighbor (who used to have a business stamping cement) suggested we use a paintbrush to feather our patches. The vermiculite particles clung to the bristles, and now we have a bunch of ruts and ridges. I'm going to have to spend quite a bit of time smoothing them out now, before we can drop the liner. (Although he was trying to be helpful, I don't think I'm gonna take my neighbor's suggestions without first bouncing them off of you.)

When sweeping, we have noticed some more places where the original surface flakes up, thus creating the need for more patching. Frustrating!

-Andy

[waste]

Here we go--

Looks like you'll be doing a Saturday drop - this may work out in your favor. The things you want done by Friday night are to have the floor patched and swept 2X (you always want the third sweeping to be right before the liner goes in! - so that will be done Sat AM), duct tape the wall seams (where the panels meet) and the seam between the coping and wall (what we're trying to do is make the 'shell' of the pool air tight so the vacs can do their job), have the 'behind the liner' gaskets in place, make sure you have both a #2 and a #3 Phillips head screwdriver (if you want to make life MUCH easier, have a cordless drill with both batteries fully charged and the #2 and #3 Phillips bits for them) and make sure that you have all the gaskets, faceplates and screws!, also have kept the liner in the warmest place possible - you want it to be over 60 degrees before unboxing it (however, you do

Saturday morning, give the pool it's final sweep, assemble your crew (it's nice to have some coffee and donuts - or a White Russian to say 'thanx' for helping). Bring out the liner and position it on the diving board (they often stuff some literature in the box, make sure that none of it is on the bottom of the liner), and unfold it into the pool.

***Here's where we get into detail***

The folks in the deep end will tuck ~2' into the track on the long wall near the grecian corner, just to hold the liner up, the rest can just 'flap' for now. The 2 in the shallow end will do the same - now the liner is in the pool and ~ close to where it needs to be. The first place to 'line up' the liner is the transition to the deep end. There should be a mark on the back of the liner (a sticker) but on the inside of the liner there ought be a pen mark (it's sometimes hard to see) showing where they made the transition for the slope while making the liner - often its a seam which follows the break - a straight line across the pool. {using your foot to hold the mark or seam on the break at the wall, pull straight up on the liner and tuck in a 1' section (you want the tile pattern to be perfectly vertical), then do the other side the same way. Now go to the corners of the shallow end and repeat the process and tuck in the liner between the points you've established. At this point, the shallow end should be all tucked in (except for the steps) - tuck in the liner down to the deep end from the break and see how it looks (you don't want wrinkles on the side walls) - use the tile pattern to see if it's still ~vertical. Remove a couple of feet of liner on the side walls so you can put the vac hoses in and slide the hoses down the wall until thay are almost at the bottom (it'd be a good idea to fold over a paper towel about 6 times and wrap that around the end of the hose and secure it with duct tape - the end of the hose can be a little too abrasive on the liner) Use plenty of duct tape to seal the top of the liner around the hose, we don't want any air getting through! Turn on the vacs and watch the liner get sucked to the walls and floor Unfortunately, it's probably not going to seal all that well because of the stairs you can either make a 'mat' of duct tape to seal the stair gap or have 2 people use their (soft soled shoes) to keep the liner tight against the wall/ floor at the edges of the stairs. When you get a full seal on the stairs, and the walls are 'sucked tight' you can start the water. This is the time to put on the stair faceplates (as long as the liner is straight and the shallow end corners are 'spot on')

Now we get into how to put a faceplate on-- You can feel the hole that is supposed to take the screw with your finger. Once you find the hole put a nail (I use a scratch awl) through the faceplate hole, with the gasket in place
on the liner side of the faceplate, and poke it through the liner. Remove the nail and start the screw, don't tighten it all the way now, you want to establish 2 points before tightening it all the way. Once you've established the 2 points, you can poke the nail through the liner (you'll be there forever trying to 'screw' a screw through the liner without first making a hole with the nail!) This is where the cordless drill comes in, take the torque down to ~ 1/2 and install the screws (then go back and hand tighten them - remember that you are dealing with plastic, if you over-torque the screws you might crack the plastic faceplate - the gasket will do the sealing as long as the screw is ~ fairly tight!) Do the stairs, which will help the rest of the liner 'suck - in' better - please make sure that the corners on the stair end are ~ perfect before putting on the stair faceplates!!! and have a helper pull the liner up to ~ the level of the coping tract while installing the stair plates!!.
Once the stairs are done, you can start filling the pool. let the water get ~ 6" and walk down to the bottom and install the MD faceplate (you want the liner
To be fully in place before 'locking it in' with any faceplate - if you have to work a wrinkle out - do it before doing any faceplate!!). Always have the liner where it doesn't have any wrinkles before putting on the faceplates - once a faceplate has been installed, you cut it out- for the light, MD and skimmer, you can be a little 'sloppy on the cut - but for the returns, you need a new blade and don't leave ANY extra - it will interfere with getting the directional eyeballs in and will prevent a full seal when you winterize the pool!

Whew! I think that covers it but let me know