On TFP and PoolForum

[ChuckD]

This one's for you CarlD and the other Mods and no offense intended.

You've locked the thread on the "other" pool forum for understandable reasons. Rules are rules. But blind adherence, in the context of an internet discussion area, is short sighted.

I believe Sean's done a great thing and his site deserves to be treated as an extension, or off-shoot, of this place. In truth it may not have even come to fruition were it not for the blessing of those here.

Immense credit to you ÜberMods for keeping this place clean and running. It'll always be the place I and many, many others got going, and the first place I'll go for inspiration. But the fact is it's doors have closed, and as Sean's site stats show, there's a whole lot more folks out there who want "in" on the discussion.

Like I'm sure many others, I hope Ben will return, reorganize and reopen the doors. In the small world of home pool owners, this site is ground-breaking (sorry!) and deserves to be maintained as you've all done. But let's not shut the door on Sean and his work. His promoting of his site is limited here, and tactful. I've no objection.

Chuck

[SeanB.]

Chuck, I don't disagree with anything you've said and very much appreciate the sentiment!

However, I think Carl and probably the other mods, are hoping that Ben will return, and as such are still running it as his site. I don't fault them for enforcing his rules and won't complain for them doing so.

With the other issues surrounding Ben's departure, I think it unlikely that he will return which is why I continued to promote my site after the initial introduction. IMO, this site is really now the property of the mods. Though it may not be so on paper, it is only still here, because they are here. If this site were some other piece of property, like say a classic car that was left on your property, after some time of abandonment, you would have a right to it. I think the mods have earned that right with this forum and should run it as their own site. The unfortunate part, sticking to my analogy, is that this car has had it's engine removed (registrations closed to new members) and can only be pushed so far. Carl and the others are keeping it shinny and clean for everyone to admire, but I think the days of taking it for a spin are past.

Again, I'll abide by their decisions here, just as I would expect them to follow the lead of mods at TFP.

Thanks again,
Sean Berry

---------------------------------
Site Owner
www.troublefreepool.com

[waste]

I just want to add that I'm not sure if Sean's 'advertising' of his site 'counts' as 'advertising'. He doesn't charge for joining his site, so really isn't selling anything other than another place to ask pool related questions, and it does follow/ recommend Ben's BBB method (though, more often than not- without giving due credit to Ben for creating the method). Yes, he is promoting his site hard, (as is understandable since he's trying to build up his site) including references here - but as Chuck said [quote]His promoting of his site is limited here, and tactful.[/u] (the only thing I would disagree with is the "tactful" part - Sean likes to remind folks of Ben's not fulfilling test kit orders when they've been payed for - other than that , I would say Sean has been 'tactful' -).

In short, I think that www/troublefreepool.com is a GREAT site, wherein the pool owners not able to join this site can find the answers to their pool questions using the same 'methods' Ben advised.

Folks who know that I'm no longer a member of Sean's site may think that this is 'contradictory' - but I support any site that teaches pool owners the 'truth' and a better way

[mwsmith2]

it does follow/ recommend Ben's BBB method (though, more often than not- without giving due credit to Ben for creating the method).

Ehhh, to say that ben came up with the idea of using chlorine for sanitizing a pool is a bit of a stretch. Liquid chlorine has been around for ages. Yes, ben did popularize it as a sanitization method here, but it's just application of simple chemistry that anybody would have seen if they'd taken the time to read the labels on what they were buying. The borax part of it is somewhat unique, but that's what makes up proteam supreme, so again, just a matter of reading a label.

I honestly don't see the need for any citation.

Michael

[ChuckD]

Agreed.
Ben is noted for his Demystification of the Black Art of Pool Maintenance. "BBB" is something that got coined as a term for avoiding getting "pool stored".

Where's Sean's follow-up post from last night?

C.

[CarlD]

We have unlocked that other thread. I can assure you that when I am on TFP I always abide by the rules of that forum as interpreted by TFP's moderators.

Yes, we are hoping Ben re-appears and makes it possible for new registrants again.

"B-B-B" was a fun term that shortens the process to 3 letters--I don't know who coined it--it might have been me, might not.

"Pool stored" was definitely mine...but I don't have a copyright on it!

[chem geek]

Though BBB may not have fully originated with Ben, I think he was one of the first to recognize and attempt to quantify the relationship between chlorine and CYA in terms of chlorine's effectiveness against algae prevention (notwithstanding the flawed methodology in the Sommerfeld/Adamson paper). A combination of experience and I believe some conversations with chemists culminated in Ben's Best Guess CYA chart. Though the science behind this equilibrium relationship was definitively determined in 1973 and presented at a symposium in 1974 published in the following reference

J. O'Brien, J. Morris and J. Butler, “Equilibria in Aqueous Solutions of Chlorinated Isocyanurate”, Chapter 14 in A. Rubin, ed., Chemistry of Water Supply, Treatment and Distribution, 1973 Symposium, (published 1974), Ann Arbor Science, Ann Arbor, MI, pp. 333-358.

this only implied a fairly linear relationship (when the CYA ppm >> FC ppm) whereby the ratio of FC to CYA roughly determined chlorine's effectiveness (that is, the hypochlorous acid concentration). As for what ratio inhibited algae prevention, this apparently came from Ben's experience with many pools over many years.

For this, and of course for PoolSolutions with all of the other tips and useful information and for The Pool Forum itself, Ben deserves a lot of credit.

At the time I ran into The Pool Forum, I had already begun working on my spreadsheet determining a Calcite Saturation Index since the LSI in the industry didn't match the Taylor watergram and seemed wrong in some of its terms. I then wanted to add the chemical equations for the chlorinated cyanurates (chlorine combined with CYA) when I ran into this website and started conversing with Ben. I eventually found another source for the equilibrium constants, but made The Pool Forum my home for posting results (suitably relegated to The China Shop due to its technical content).

I am currently trying to shift the pool industry into adopting these chemical principles into standards such as the APSP-11 and into training such as NSPF CPO and APSP Tech courses. I also want to initiate a study on using a small amount of CYA in indoor pools to reduce the over-chlorination in such pools including the possible greater production of disinfection by-products (indoor pools without CYA have 10-30 times the hypochlorous acid level of typical outdoor pools with CYA). Another study I would like to see is on using sodium chlorite as a way of generating chlorine dioxide (which inactivates Crypto at least 15 times faster than chlorine) in commercial/public pools after a diarrhea fecal accident since the CDC now has guidelines that would effectively eliminate CYA since it would prevent fighting against Crypto (see here) . This will be a long haul, but I believe it to be worthwhile.

Were it not for Ben and The Pool Forum, I doubt that I would have pursued these efforts as I would not have known that the problems I encountered with my pool after 1-1/2 years (with CYA getting to 150 ppm) were so common and so easily mitigated.

Richard

[aylad]

SeanB and others,

I usually try to stay on the sidelines of most controversial subjects, intervening only when I feel it is absolutely necessary, because I believe the forum is just that…a place where people do have the right to express their own opinions. However, I feel like now is the time for me to offer my opinion, and I believe that I speak for the other moderators as well.

The issue of Ben being MIA is one that has been hashed over ad nauseum, so I won’t hash it over again here, except to say that if Ben were to reappear and assume control of the forum again, that would be great. Truthfully, I don’t think that it will happen, but we never know. In the meantime, when Watermom, Poconos, Carl and myself accepted the moderator positions, the understanding was that as long as the forum was in existence, (not as long as it was actively recruiting new posters, but as long as it was in existence), we would be there to run it the way Ben wanted it run. That is a responsibility each of us takes seriously, even if others think we are foolish (as has been stated in the past).

When SeanB started TFP as an extension of the PF, it did allow many people who were not able to register on PF to register in a forum that would get them much the same advice that was given on PF. That was wonderful, and in that light I think TFP was a good thing. After awhile, occasional posts with the links to the TFP forum were being made on PF and were not banned or otherwise commented on by us (the mods), in the interest of being fair to people who were not being allow to register on the PF, although by then the TFP was becoming more of a competitor than a “sister” to the PF. Still, those who were not allowed to register on PF were being directed to the TFP site for help. Those occasional posts were being followed by more frequent posts, where there was no outright “attack” on the PF, but frequent mentioning of the forum being a “dying” and “inactive” forum, usually followed by mention of the TFP site. Those were largely ignored by us. However, at this point, there are several posts throughout the forum with links to the TFP site, so further posts about how wonderful the TFP is, and how great it’s going, are largely just a slap in the face to those of us who helped build and are still in place to help run the PF site. Since Ben’s absence and the inability to accept new registrations has been discussed over and over and over, and the links to TFP have been frequently posted around the forum, at this point feels like you guys are continuing to beat a horse that’s already fallen down, and I don’t know how you can expect that we (largely the mods) won’t have some resentment toward you (that being the collective, not the literal “you”) for that. This is why we reacted to the most recent thread the way we did—it served really no other purpose than to remind us once again that we are not the forum we used to be, and unfortunately it’s through nothing that we can control.

I’m glad that TFP is booming, and hope it continues to do so. I am respectfully asking you, though, to keep TFP business at TFP and leave the PF alone. Your advice contributions are certainly welcome and encouraged, but please try to remember that constant reminders of our troubles here are really unnecessary, and in my opinion, unprofessional. There are still people who registered throughout the years at PF who are still asking questions and learning, and we intend to stay here for those people, if for no other reason. We do not come to TFP to stir up controversy for you, and I am asking you to return the favor.

I am trying as hard as I can to remain as diplomatic as possible, and I’m hoping that you will read this in the light in which I intended: I want PF and TFP to continue to coexist with some kind of relationship, which is the way the site was originally intended to be….but I am also asking you to remember that there are those of us still at PF who have invested a great deal of time and energy into making the site what it was….and feel like we have the right to be respected, too.

Janet

[waterbear]

Janet,
I understand where you are coming from but tell me... what about a newbie who comes here and has questions but cannot register and get them answered? Unless they are lucky enough to come across TFP or even Poolcenter's forum in a search engine they are basically at a dead end. (I certainly hope they don't end up on Poolspaforum!) Perhaps it might be beneficial to this segment of the pool owning market that are looking to learn more and get advice to be able to direct them to places where they can become actively involved.
I know there are no easy answers to this but isn't one of the reasons we got together as a community in the firstplace was to help other pool owners and exchange knowledge? I know that there is a wealth of information to be found on here just by searching and browsing the posts but it still does not compare to the handholding and encouragement someone gets when they post their progess with such things as clearing a green pool or converting from biguanide.

[CarlD]

Janet,
I understand where you are coming from but tell me... what about a newbie who comes here and has questions but cannot register and get them answered? Unless they are lucky enough to come across TFP or even Poolcenter's forum in a search engine they are basically at a dead end. (I certainly hope they don't end up on Poolspaforum!) Perhaps it might be beneficial to this segment of the pool owning market that are looking to learn more and get advice to be able to direct them to places where they can become actively involved.
I know there are no easy answers to this but isn't one of the reasons we got together as a community in the firstplace was to help other pool owners and exchange knowledge? I know that there is a wealth of information to be found on here just by searching and browsing the posts but it still does not compare to the handholding and encouragement someone gets when they post their progess with such things as clearing a green pool or converting from biguanide.

Evan:

This is why the moderators have, as a team, decided to continue to allow references to TFP--so that there is a place people can register, post questions and get answers. If our forum ever opens up again to allow new registrations, it will be up to Ben to decide, at that time, if such a referral is OK.

Janet fully understands this, and she speaks for the 4 of us. But if referral to TFP turns to criticism of PF--knocking us down to build TFP up, or further recriminations against Ben for the same purpose, we wll step in using our roles as moderators to protect PF.

Carl.