Man, I hear ya. Maybe Dennis can drop us some hints. The first liner install we did 4 years ago, we tried the vacuum thing, and it didn't seem to do anything. It was a jhook, but still. We just did our best, and had wrinkles all in it. Sure makes you respect all the Professionals out there. Our family has nothing to do with thinking that I can do as good of a job as them, and save a boat load of cash while Im at it, but more for the challenge that it presents. Ive always thought if I can do it half as good as them, then Ill be satisfied. The main thing is thinking realistic!