AG Pool wiring and other headaches

[prh129]

[QUOTE=The Raddish]
What I have done is put in 3/4" conduit from the breaker box to a T-junction under the deck. The conduit is buried about 14" or so, which is deeper than the 12" required by 680.
QUOTE]

Is this an older version of 680? I'm looking at the 2005 version and it states 18" for nonmetallic raceways.

I too only went about 14" down because my ground is loaded with rocks so I don't know if it will fly or not.

Sorry about the duplicate response on bonding - I didn't see John Ts answer while I was writing mine.

Peter

[NWMNMom]

Ok, thanks for the answers. A couple of things:

1) we can't move the pool anywhere else (but didn't have problems with bugs in our 18' round, so fingers crossed, we won't when putting this one in the same spot)
2) we live 10 miles from the nearest town (if you can call it that - 20 miles from one that has anything nearing govening bodies that give permits) so permits are not an issue
3) if a new panel is required closer we will put one in
4) Ok, I'll talk to him about bonding too

Thanks!

[The Raddish]

Is this an older version of 680? I'm looking at the 2005 version and it states 18" for nonmetallic raceways.

This is true if the breakers are not GFI. That aspect seems to make the difference. If your circuits are all GFI at the breaker box, then 12" is the required depth for nonmetallic raceways. If they are not GFI at the breaker box, then 18" is required.

At least, that is my understanding of the code.

[prh129]

This is true if the breakers are not GFI. That aspect seems to make the difference. If your circuits are all GFI at the breaker box, then 12" is the required depth for nonmetallic raceways. If they are not GFI at the breaker box, then 18" is required.

At least, that is my understanding of the code.

OK - I see where that is defined in section 300.5. I will have a GFI breaker on the circuit so I would be covered in that case with a 12" depth but I'm not sure it meets with part 680.10.

It is not clear to me if the depths listed in 680.10 apply only to non-pool wiring that can't be moved away from the pool area or if it's for all wiring in the pool area. I'd like to know up front in case it becomes an issue at inspection time.

John T - you seem to have experience with this - what do you know about this?

Thanks

Peter

[The Raddish]

...any tricks?

I'm pulling three 10AWG and six 12AWG wires through about 30 feet of 3/4" nonmetallic conduit with two 90º standard radius turns.

I do have string strung through the conduit, so I can tie it off if needed.

[rbutera]

Not sure this was brought up before (I came in late), but I wired up my pool 4 years ago and spent a lot of time sorting out the codes.

One issue that has not been mentioned: if your pool pump is double insulated (most likely is), the bonding wire should not be attached to it.

(Yet the 2002 code says you should still keep in nearby just in case some day someone else installs a non-insulated pump ...)

I found the following web site useful:

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...bove/index.htm

And confirmed most of it myself with the 2002 NEC (I'm a EE PE, though I don't use the PE much for a living -- sorting out the pool stuff is the most code-intensive thing I've done)

Another issue regarding pool lighting:

The code for underwater lighting is really specific. Like requiring that conduit is run all the way to the box (not just the house), and that the circuit is not shared with anything else except pool lighting. It is by far the most underutilized 15A circuit in my entire house (just one AG pool light).

[Mike_in_NJ]

Raddish,

Regarding pulling your wire through the conduit, three things come to mind right away:

- 1: I don't have a "fill table" handy, but I think you -might- have too many wires in that 3/4 conduit. Double check the allowable fill for conduit.

-2: Instead of standard elbows on the conduit, you can/should use pulling elbows. It also -might- be required to use pulling elbows. Again, I don't have the tables/code handy to look it up.

- 3: Use wire pulling lube aka "snot".

[JohnT]

OK - I see where that is defined in section 300.5. I will have a GFI breaker on the circuit so I would be covered in that case with a 12" depth but I'm not sure it meets with part 680.10.

It is not clear to me if the depths listed in 680.10 apply only to non-pool wiring that can't be moved away from the pool area or if it's for all wiring in the pool area. I'd like to know up front in case it becomes an issue at inspection time.

John T - you seem to have experience with this - what do you know about this?

Thanks

Peter

Peter, the first thing you need to be aware of is that local codes are often more strict than NEC, and sometimes have pretty unexpected requirements. Often, cities have a handout that outlines local codes. Also be aware that there are changes regarding pools in every revision of the NEC, and 2005 had many. These changes are mostly clarifications, because this stuff is confusing, and many electricians and inspectors don't understand it. Even if you are NEC 2005 to the letter, you may not be in compliance with local codes.

680 says no wiring with 5ft of the inside of the pool wall except for pool equipment feeds unless space or property lines make it necessary. For pool equipment wiring, 6 inches is the required depth for metal conduit, and 18 inches for non-metallic conduit. 680 does not make the exception for GFI. Although your 12 inch depth may meet article 300, it is in violation of 680.

It is my understanding that this requirement applies to all wiring in the pool area, even if it is not pool related and allowed by the space exception. Also, utility companies do not conform to NEC, but rather have their own code (NESC). If this affects you, contact your power company.

In a comment above, another poster stated that you shouldn't bond a double insulated pump motor. Per NEC 2005, the bonding wire must be installed, just not connected to the motor in the event a replacement motor is installed that requires bonding. These are primarily above ground pumps.

[prh129]

Thanks John. I dug the trench and buried the conduit last fall so I could plant grass. The electrician is pulling the permit, installing the bonding wire and making all of the connections so the only thing I have to worry about is the conduit depth. At worst case, I'll just have to dig it up and bury it a little deeper (and hope I don't hit any huge rocks).

Peter

[The Raddish]

For pool equipment wiring, 6 inches is the required depth for metal conduit, and 18 inches for non-metallic conduit. 680 does not make the exception for GFI. Although your 12 inch depth may meet article 300, it is in violation of 680.

While I don't currently have it in front of me, I could have sworn that I read something to this effect in 680:

"The nonmetallic conduit must be buried a minimum of 12” deep if 120 volt GFI protected from the start of the branch circuit. All nonmetallic conduit must be at least 18” deep, if not GFI protected."

In fact, this site has been pretty helpful in understanding the NEC section 680, and he points out this burial depth two or three times.

Either way, the conduit is all in place now, I need only wire the circuit at this point. I'm also not worried about passing any kind of inspection (since I'm out in the county and it is a previously installed pool, I don't need a permit), I'm mainly concerned with safety for me and my family. The previous wiring job was a death trap, literally. What I have replaced it with may not be 100% to code, but it is safe, and that's the important thing to me.

In a comment above, another poster stated that you shouldn't bond a double insulated pump motor. Per NEC 2005, the bonding wire must be installed, just not connected to the motor in the event a replacement motor is installed that requires bonding. These are primarily above ground pumps.

I saw that, and it got me to wondering: where would be the bonding point on this circuit, if not on the pump motor housing?

- 1: I don't have a "fill table" handy, but I think you -might- have too many wires in that 3/4 conduit. Double check the allowable fill for conduit.

-2: Instead of standard elbows on the conduit, you can/should use pulling elbows. It also -might- be required to use pulling elbows. Again, I don't have the tables/code handy to look it up.

- 3: Use wire pulling lube aka "snot".

1- I'm under 40% fill. I don't have the numbers here, but I'm fine.

2- Conduit is already assembled and buried at this point. Since I've only got two 90º standard radius turns, I should be okay. Last night I tried taping the wires together and pulling/pushing them through, but I made the mistake of not staggering the wires when I taped them.

I'll pick up some lube today or tomorrow and try again, this time with a few changes. One, I'll stagger the wires to make negotiating the bends in the conduit easier, and two, I'll use some heavier nylon cord instead of the thin twine that I was trying to use last night (which was getting me nowhere). The lube should help, too.

Again, thanks everyone for your input in this thread. Not only has it helped me, but I'm sure it has helped more than a couple of lurkers out there, too.