vinyl pool / stone coping how-to help??

[thequietwon]

Guys...
This site has been a wealth of information and finally, after 7 months of waiting and planning , ground was broke for my mountain lake today. I am going for the natural look, and am considering doing stone coping on the pool myself as my builder doesn't do it in-house, and I haven't found any examples around that I liked (natural look is not popular here). My builder is going to backfill with gravel, and pour a collar flush with the top of the steel wall, with concrete columns going from the collar to the footer every 6-8 feet. Is this overkill? I plan on attaching TN crab orchard (gray) over the steel wall & collar. With there being a partial steel surface involved is there anything special about the mortar I need to use? My pool builder also wants to leave rebar hanging from the collar so that when the concrete deck is poured up to the coping, it will all be joined together. Is this a good idea, or do I need an expansion joint between the two? Is the crab orchard a good choice (hard to find anything else locally...but 1 stone yard has just enough PA bluestone to do it)? How do you professionals do it? I am open to any and all suggestions!!!Thanks in advance....

[waste]

thequietwon, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! - sorry no one has ever responded to one of your querries!!
As the pool is just being dug, you have a little time to make your decision/ find the stone you want to put as coping. I don't know how wide the stone you are planning on using will be, but the collar (flush with the top of the steel wall) should be 1' - 18" and NOT smooth (this will help the stone bond to it and let the deck over it provide counter weight for the stone). You are right in that the mortar will not readily bond to the steel wall without help. I would suggest that you use a 2 part 'brush on' epoxy to help the disparate materials bond. (NOTE, this stuff 'sets up' in < 10 min and can get VERY hot as it sets (en mass) - so mix small quantities and have several buckets and brushes to use when applying it - if you use a wood handled brush, you may see smoke pouring out of the bucket after ~ 10 min if you haven't applied it all)

Another thing you will want to keep in mind is that you WILL, at some point in the future, need to replace the liner. To this end:
1) Make sure that you have a 1/8" - 1/4" (preferable) mortar bed - so that there is enough room to get the liner in and out of the track (1/2" would make a liner installer even happier )
2) 'Paint on' the epoxy at least 1/2" back from the edge (an epoxied in liner would require removing the coping AND the track in which it sits (so a 1' area could mean removing 10' of coping and track!))
3) Make sure to keep the mortar out of the track! (for the same reason above) You can use masking tape or plastic wrap to prevent the mortar from getting into the track - it can be removed (by razor knife or tearring) fairly easily, but having the liner 'mortard in' will be a real PITA when the time comes to replace the liner. Also, tape, if left too long, can leave the 'sticky' part of it behind and make the liner bead look ~'diseased' (and anything, chemically, you use to remove it can take the pattern off of the liner).

Again, welcome to the forum!! Perhaps this time others will 'chime in' with other possible solutions. If you ever need more help, or if I can clarify something I've said - feel free to call upon me!! - Waste

[thequietwon]

Waste...
Thanks so much for your reply...I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it. I am assuming that I would brush on the epoxy & immediately lay my wet morter bed on top of it? The mason shop where I will probably get the stone recommended using type S morter...is this okay? Do I need to add anything to the mix? Sould I use the same morter as grout as well? I am planning on about a 1.50" overhang on the front...do you recommend anymore or less? And finally, does there need to be a fexible joint seperating the deck from the stone, or is my builders idea of rebar joining the 2 (and making the collar & deck essentially 1 piece) okay? I am sorry for all the questions, but this is my first pool and I really want to make it something special for my family to enjoy...and I don't want to look back later and say "I should have done that"...although I still probablty will!! Thanks...

[waste]

thequietwon, it is my pleasure to help the folks here when I can!

Yes, apply the mortar to the beam while the epoxy is still 'setting'/ wet (it will actually be longer than 10 min that the painted on epoxy takes to set up), One of the 'problems" you will have is that you don't have straight walls, so you'll be doing a LOT of stone cutting - do it by sections, pre cut the stone and only apply the epoxy and mortar in managable areas (DO be sure to measure 3X before doing any cuts - esp. if you go with the blue stone and only have just enough to do the pool!!) I would have suggested a 'canalever, stamped' deck, but I've never seen a lake with a concrete deck and you want a 'natural look' I hope that you are a competant mason, this will be a ~difficult job. (I'm thinking that you will have to do a LOT of cutting to get the coping to follow the curves of your pool, a little chiseling of the cut edges will make the stone 'more natural looking')

As for type of morter and additives, I honestly don't know - I'm not a mason. What I've used in the past is a ~50-50 mix white cement and marble dust (for the precast coping on crete pools) and the same mix for the grout. I would trust the folks you're getting the stone from. If the color of the morter is not what you'd want for the grout/ final (visible) finnish, use something that would look better (sorry, no clue as to what would be best , perhaps some of the 'crete pool' pros will have an idea)

As for a 1.5" overhang, I'd take it back to ~1", that's a fairly large lip and not only will hinder liner placement/ replacement, but could be a 'toe catcher' for folks not using the ladder or steps. Also, the more of the stone (%) secured to the wall/ deck, the less chance of it 'popping off" and into the pool - the liner will not forgive a large stone being dropped on it!

For the rebar connecting to the deck, I think it's a very good idea (esp. if that rebar is bonded to the pool)! However, I feel you should still have the expansion joint between the coping and deck (as I said before, having one of those stones 'pop off' and end up in the pool will suck!), caulk covered backerrod may not be as 'natural' as you want, but a little sand sprinkled onto the wet caulk can help it look more natural.

Please don't appologise for your questions! - How can you get the info you need if you don't ask? The wonderful thing about this forum is that there are a bunch of people here that are willing to answer pool owners questions (or at least give their best opinion/ experience) and help as they can. I'm sorry (!) that your other ?s got 'lost in the shuffle', but if you start your own thread with a question (like you did here), people are more likely to see it and respond.

Again, I welcome you to the forum!! You are doing the best thing by comming here to ask your questions and learn about your new pool. I'm sure you'll be a hero to your family this summer when they have a beautiful pool to enjoy (and the envy of your neighbors )!!!

If you need any more help/ clarification - just ask