Coring question

[Sumo1]

Can I core a hole through the side of an old concrete/plaster pool to add a return line and get it properly sealed? The original pool was just a concrete hole in the ground, poured over 50 years ago. The bottom cracked and, in the 1970's, a new gunite pool was plumbed and installed inside the old one. After it was filled and operated, some areas were found to have poor circulation. The solution used was to add a return line in one end and a suction line in the other end, with both lines being run over the wall. If we cored the holes and put the lines below grade and into the pool, can such a job be properly sealed? One pool service guy told us we would never be able to keep it from leaking. Comments? Solutions? Ideas? All are welcome. Thanks, Hal

[mas985]

I know and heard of several people doing this and sealing the hole with epoxy but I cannot tell you how effective it was and how long the seal lasted. I would get a few estimates/opinions from pool repair shops.

Maybe some of the builders on the forum can chime in too.

[Sumo1]

Thanks, Mark. How about it, pool builders? What is the best way to seal around a newly installed return in an existing pool? Surely I can't be the first to have faced this.... Hal

[txhomebrew]

I watched the builder pound the PVC pipe through the wet cement walls on our pool. Later they glued on the beauty ring, wall fitting which the plaster crew just filled behind. I'd bet you could use a good guality white sanded grout (like for floors or showers) and get a good seal. There is not a lot of pressure just a foot down.

Tha Beerman

[waste]

Hal, et al, The biggest problem is getting the 'fill material' to bond to the pipe (the pipe is smooth and doesn't bond well to crete or hydrolic cement. The core drill is not going to be the exact size of the pipe (you probably don't want it to be because core drilling 'dead level' is neigh impossible, so a little 'over sized' hole will let you level up the faceplate). once the pipe's hole is through the wall, you'll want to bevel the inteior wall so that you can pack in the filler and end up with the plate flush with the wall.
The plaster (I assume you have a plaster finnish) will be the first line of leakproofing. However, plaster is a crete product and the bonding issues can occur. What I've done in the past is to get some 2 part epoxy adhesive and apply it to the pvc pipe just prior to 'packing in' the hydrolic cement - the epoxy readily adheres to both the pipe and the cement providing a good seal (the epoxy adhesive is NOT the same as the 2 part epoxy putty which has been discussed other places here!) (There are some tips on doing this if you'd like them, but being a slow and poor typist, I'd just as soon wait for the request for additional info ). While I can not guarantee that NO water will get out using this method, I strongly doubt that you'll be able to notice any discernable amount leaving the pool.
If you've further questions about what I've said, feel free to ask for clarification. (and I look forward to any responses from the folks who have done this in the past decade - which I haven't, I left crete pools behind in the mid 90's) - Best of luck!

[huskyrider]

Use a 2" drill, after drilling open up a little cave around the opening about 1 1/4" wider on each side and 1" back into the beam. Heap some marine epoxy around the 1 1/2" pipe about an inch back from the back of the cave, push it in and then fill the last inch around the pipe with the marine epoxy. Cut your pipe flush with the wall and glue on a wall fitting the next day after the epoxy has dried. Fill in the cave with either pool mix and white portland or buy a little tub of "Pool Patch" It's a high calcium quick setting pool mix. This is a 24 hour start to finish repair and it won't leak. With the right size cave you'll only slightly see the blend outside of your wall fitting where it meets the plaster. To small of a cave and you can't work the pool mix behind the wall fitting and into the cave.
This sealing method is the way you do it if your adding drains or returns into a wall on a pool that the buyer doesn't want to pay for a replaster job.

See ya,
Kelly

[Sumo1]

Thanks, guys. Just the kind of replies I was hoping for. I'll show them to the people I'm working with and may ask more later. Hal

[Sumo1]

Hal, et al, The biggest problem is getting the 'fill material' to bond to the pipe (the pipe is smooth and doesn't bond well to crete or hydrolic cement. The core drill is not going to be the exact size of the pipe (you probably don't want it to be because core drilling 'dead level' is neigh impossible, so a little 'over sized' hole will let you level up the faceplate). once the pipe's hole is through the wall, you'll want to bevel the inteior wall so that you can pack in the filler and end up with the plate flush with the wall.
The plaster (I assume you have a plaster finnish) will be the first line of leakproofing. However, plaster is a crete product and the bonding issues can occur. What I've done in the past is to get some 2 part epoxy adhesive and apply it to the pvc pipe just prior to 'packing in' the hydrolic cement - the epoxy readily adheres to both the pipe and the cement providing a good seal (the epoxy adhesive is NOT the same as the 2 part epoxy putty which has been discussed other places here!) (There are some tips on doing this if you'd like them, but being a slow and poor typist, I'd just as soon wait for the request for additional info ). While I can not guarantee that NO water will get out using this method, I strongly doubt that you'll be able to notice any discernable amount leaving the pool.
If you've further questions about what I've said, feel free to ask for clarification. (and I look forward to any responses from the folks who have done this in the past decade - which I haven't, I left crete pools behind in the mid 90's) - Best of luck!

Waste, I'm finally ready to ask for the tips mentioned above.
I'm not 100% sure which method we'll use but more options and knowledge surely can't hurt. We're going to core 3 holes for 2" pipe, one drain and two returns. Any wisdoms you can offer are appreciated.
Hal

[waste]

Hal,
Kelly's method and mine are pretty much the same, about the only place we differ is in the sealing method. I've never used the marine epoxy so will limit my comments to what I said.

The epoxy paint on adhesive I was talking about was made by Sampson Paints in Richmond Va - they happened to be about 2 1/2 blocks from our warehouse - I'd assume that other paint manufacturers make a similar product. The stuff we got came in a few different types, be sure that the 'hardener' matches the resin (if they don't match - the epoxy may fail). When you mix the stuff up do it in small amounts, the stuff 'kicks' in ~ 10 min, also it will get very (!) hot - I've seen smoke rolling off of wooden handled paint brushes that have sat in the mix while it sets ) Speaking of which, have a few palstic buckets, paint mixing sticks and cheep (disposable) paint brushes on hand, once the stuff goes, you're not using them for anything else again, except maybe the bucket which you could pour some sand into and make an ashtray .

Now let's talk hydrolic cement (Waterplug, Thorite ...), this stuff sets up quicker than the epoxy paint - once it's mixed, you've got ~ 3- 5 min to apply it. Have a couple of buckets ready to do a couple of 'small' mixes (in a 5 gal. bucket put 3 - 4" of the powder in the bottom and add the water slowly! until it makes an oatmeal consistancy (as the water is added, mix it in with the powder) Using a 'margin trowel' makes it easier to get the mix consistant (no pockets of dry powder) - if it is too wet or dry to use right away, more powder or water can be added, but it's gotta be quick because the stuff sets so fast! The folks mixing or applying this stuff should wear Dr.'s gloves as it is very (!) astringent, a coat of Vasoline will also help keep it from 'burning' the skin. For aplication, the best tool is your gloved hand, and perhaps a flathead screwdriver to pack it in - you'll probably use both ends of it. It's important to have ~ 1" of the hydrolic cement be packed into the space between the epoxied pipe and the existing wall back in the cove you beveled out. Also remember to leave enough room for the faceplate fitting.

OK, let's put this thing in... leave a couple feet of pipe available on the back side, have someone push the pipe into the pool to you so you can aply the epoxy (measuring where you will need it is a good idea ) and then pull it back through the hole to where it's ~ flush with the wall, 1/8" behind the 'face of the wall will allow you to get the faceplte flush with the wall. When you start to epoxy the outside of the pipe, have someone mix up a batch of the hydrolic cement so everything's ready when you 'paint' the pipe. If it can be done, when packing in the hydrolic cement, have someone 'backing you up' from the back side of the pool (where they pulled back the pipe from) with something which would fit into the coredrilled hole and provide something to keep the 'crete' you're packing in to be tight against the pipe and existing wall, if you can't do that ( I think you've got 1+' of wall, due to 2 walls) make sure that you really! pack that stuff in. Have the person on the back end hold the pipe so that the faceplate will be plumb with the wall! As a last measure, sometimes we would epoxy and fill the backside of the cored hole with the hydrolic cement.

Sorry, I wasn't here yesterday because I went to a bar and got home late and I'm very!! tired right now -- If I wasn't clear on anything or missed something, I'll correct it tomorow. -Ted

[edit] If the person mixing the hydrolic cement has never done it before, it might be worth the wasted material to have them mix up a test batch so they have an idea of how much water to use and whoever is applying it can see how quickly it sets. / The applied epoxy doesn't set as quickly as the stuff left in the bucket, you've probably got 20+ min to put in the hydrolic cement. / Finding something the right height to support the back end of the pipe means that someone doesn't have to hold it for 15- 20 min to keep it parallel to the pool wall. [end edit]