Electrical wiring concern with my PB

[huskyrider]

quote" And if someone tells him to do it his self then that is not a smart thing to tell him "quote

Yes sir, with this I agree 100percent.

Not because he's not capable, rather because any little nit pick item that may come up electrically oriented within the first year will not be covered.
It's obvious to me that if the buyer changed out his existing meter can and power center for the home that he's more than capable of energizing the new power center for the digital controller off of a new double throw breaker.
I know the owner of his pool company is a good man, and as long as he doesn't add any incurred costs to his spread he'll oblige the homeowners requests. The question is will the subcontractor that the work is assigned to oblige him too.

One of the biggest reasons, aside from the additional profitability and scheduling on my timeline, that I keep the bulk of our work inhouse is situations just like this. Subs are accustomed to getting their way because 99 out of 100 pool builders are only capable of the most important job descriptions of all, the selling of the work and the cutting of the checks. I can assure you of this, the builder needs the sub more than the sub needs the builder.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

Here is my take on it. The electrical sub already has to do the following to bring electric to the panel.

1. Cut a hole in the brick to bring service from main panel to the outside.
2. Run conduit through the brick and out to the EasyTouch panel 5 feet away
3. Run two 30 AMP and a 15 AMP run through conduit. I also forgot to mention they are running a 15 AMP circuit to my outdoor kitchen and I have another sub for my patio cover that needs to run a 15 AMP circuit. I assume this would require 2 x 10/3 cables (220 service for pumps, etc, 1 x 14/2 (pool lights), 1 x 14/3 (dedicated run for outdoor kitchen) and a #6 ground (must run seperate ground as you cannot bond ground to the neutral in a sub panel).

If they install it as a sub panel he still has to do all the steps above the only difference is the hole in the brick will need to be slightly larger to accomodate the larger conduit, the wires which would now be 3 x #2 and a #6 ground (the retail cost of these wires for a 5 foot run is less then $20.00. There would also be an additional 100 AMP breaker that costs $33.00 at Home Depot. I would be more then happy to buy the wire, breaker and conduit.

For the above change, the charge I would consider fair is $100-150. That would be about $50-60 in parts and $50-100 in extra labor which to be honest is no more work. Maybe 10 minutes more for a pro.

I have thought about adding a 100 AMP sub panel to the outside of my house for the electrical sub to use but that is an extra $30.00 out of my pocket for the panel.

As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem. You can basically have an unlimited number of breakers regardless of the service. The key thing is you cannot draw more power then you have. In my case I would not run the pool equiptment if I was welding but having an additional 50 or 100 AMP breaker in the panel that not being used is no risk. My original server was 125 AMP's I doubt I was every using more then 90. I have a gas range so that is 40 AMP's right there that is connected in the panel but not used. I upgraded to 200 AMP's to have a ton of headroom so the wire would not heat up from being close to max load.

I will have a conversation with my PB today. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

Steve

[skamp]

Well I just looked at my contract again and it states in the utilities section that it includes a sub panel. Looks like they are on the hook for doing this. I guess the big question is what AMP service does that mean? If they were planning on running a 60 AMP (which I would deem to be the minimum) they would need to run #4 so I am hoping I can convince them to run #2 with a 100 AMP breaker instead for the cost difference. I will let you know what happens.

Steve

[pinkivory_99]

I agree with Skamp 100 to 150 extra for the work would be more inline than the 300 that the electrcian wanted. I did not mean that Skamp should just do it, I realize that permits are needed and that codes need to be followed. Since Skamp just upgraded his service I think he should know the codes and that permits would be needed, since going from a 125 amp service to a 200 amp service would mean an increase in the wire size coming from the metercan and possibly a change in the metercan plus bigger wire from the metrercan to where the utility company hooks up. The town that I live in Texas allows the Homeowner to perform his own work if he can articulate to the inspector what he is going to do and show that he knows the code and the utility company will not hook you back up until the inspector okays the work. Being an electrician by trade at one time, I don't see what the big deal is about this job.

[skamp]

I agree with Skamp 100 to 150 extra for the work would be more inline than the 300 that the electrcian wanted. I did not mean that Skamp should just do it, I realize that permits are needed and that codes need to be followed. Since Skamp just upgraded his service I think he should know the codes and that permits would be needed, since going from a 125 amp service to a 200 amp service would mean an increase in the wire size coming from the metercan and possibly a change in the metercan plus bigger wire from the metrercan to where the utility company hooks up. The town that I live in Texas allows the Homeowner to perform his own work if he can articulate to the inspector what he is going to do and show that he knows the code and the utility company will not hook you back up until the inspector okays the work. Being an electrician by trade at one time, I don't see what the big deal is about this job.

Yea where I live there are no permits or inspections but I spent a ton of time makeing sure I knew what I was doing before I did it. Electric service is no joke. The reason why I did the 200 AMP upgrade myself is contractors were quoting me $2000+. I did it for $450.00 which included some day laborers to dig the trench. This included running 90 feet of 4/0 4/0 2/0 URD through 2" schedule 80 conduit buried 18+ inches deep from the transformer to the meter can, a 200 AMP main breaker, and running the 4/0 4/0 2/0 URD from the meter can to the main panel.

Anyway I spoke with my PB and there was a miscommunication. My quote included a sub panel hookup so it looks like I got all worked up for nothing. I appreciate all the feedback and comments!

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem"

Standard wise, this statement is wrong.

[skamp]

"As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem"

Standard wise, this statement is wrong.

Not sure what you mean. You can have multiple sub panels and still not overload the main panel. The number of breakers and/or feeders to other sub panels is irrelevant. Only the total load matters. The problem is not the number of breakers or sub panels.

Almost everyone's main panel is "over subscribed" in that the total sum of all the breakers is more and in most cases much more then the main breaker. There is a limit but it is much higher then the main breaker's rating. In practice you would do a load calculation to determine your maximum probable load to size your main service. I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's.

Below is something I found that deals with a question on the NEC test that applies here.

Q8. Is there a code limitation as to the total ampere rating of all circuit breakers in a panel? Example: Could the total ampere rating of all circuit breakers in a 100A panel exceed 100A?

A8. This is not a Code issue. The sum of the ampere rating of the circuit breakers in a panelboard is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, it is very common for the total ampere rating of the branch breakers in a panelboard to far exceed the rating of the panelboard.

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's."

Well all I can say is, This is your house, You said there is no inspections in your area, you say your panel would never reach 200 amps even with adding tools and welders. So I say good luck with your project and I hope you never have any problems.

[skamp]

"I did not run the calulation but my service even with the sub panel would never come close to 200 AMP's."

Well all I can say is, This is your house, You said there is no inspections in your area, you say your panel would never reach 200 amps even with adding tools and welders. So I say good luck with your project and I hope you never have any problems.

As of right now I don't have tools or a welder hooked up. I wanted to have space to add it later. If I was to do this I would make sure that the pool equipment was off to prevent a possible overload. Even if it did not still don't think I would be close to 200 AMP's. If I did exceed the 200 AMP's the main breaker would trip. That is what it's job is, to prevent an overload.

To be honest I wish they had inspections in my area to make sure my work is solid. I have spoken to a number of electricians before doing my 200 AMP upgrade to make 100% I was following code.

Steve

[Poolidiot]

"If I did exceed the 200 AMP's the main breaker would trip. That is what it's job is, to prevent an overload. "


I agree that is the breakers "job", BUT I have seen breakers NOT do the job, I have seen an cord break and land in water and the breaker not trip. So although that is a breakers job it does not always do its job right. I just work on the side of safety.