2 speed pump or not? Also the great DE debate!

[waterbear]

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly, the Clean and Clear plus 520 by Pentair is a 4 cartridge unit. This are a horror to clean and, IMHO, is WAY oversized for a 20k pool! The Clean and Clear 150 has exaxtly the same residential flow rate and turnover capacity and just uses one larger cartridge so it makes maintenance much easier and cartrdge replacement expense much lower. Granted the 150 only has 150 sq in of filter area compared to the 520 sq in of the plus model and only about 1/3 the commercial flow rate but it should be more than adequite for this installation, if not oversized! (a good idea with cartridge filters). If the commercial flow rate is what you are basing it on the Clean and Clear 200 has a commercial flow rate of 75 gpm and all three of this filters have a manufacturer's turnover rate of 48 k gallons in 8 hours so this would be over 2 times the pool volume.
The Pentair FNS series DE filters are excellent, IMHO but do you really think a pool of this size needs the 60 sq in filter? Based on turnover capacity I would think the FNS 48 would be more than adequite.
Evan
Just my 2 cents!

[huskyrider]

Just as two lawyers interpret a law differently so do pool professionals.

The larger filter will easily go a full swim season before it needs cleaning and is rated for a much higher flow rate than one with a third of the swept area.
I'm not saying that the 150 isn't adequate because it is. I use larger filters so the buyer can clean in April and October. IMO, the 150 owner will be cleaning much more often than the 520's owner. I'd rather clean more elements less times than one element more times.
What I've found is that most buyers completely forget about their filters. When they call me back every time the filter gets dirty it's assumed that I'll clean it for free until the end of the first year. I find it easier to pay more for the bigger filter knowing it'll go years without cleaning if necessary.
I've seen lackadaisical homeowners who'll go 3 or more years without cleaning their filter. These large multi-cart filters will circulate even with more dirt in them than you can put in a full size wheelbarrow. I've seen it firsthand on many occasions.

I'm not trying to imply that all homeowners are the same, I'm going by what I've seen year in and year out. I've had plenty of homeowners who'd just assume not clean and simply pay to have the elements cleaned or replaced. For those the larger filter makes perfect sense. You don't have to pay for filter cleans as often. In our area a filter cleaning costs the same whether it's one element or 4 elements. If I were in the service and repair business in addition to pool construction I'd install smaller filters and cross my fingers that I get the call every time the element gets dirty and needs cleaning.

See ya,
Kelly

[CarlD]

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service. That's clever thinking.

DE filters do need screens or fingers maintained, and some people pay for that once a season. Others do it themselves. Not being an expert on DE I don't know the details.

Sand filters only require back-washing, and that's no effort at all. There's no way I'd pay anyone (other than my kid's allowance) to do THAT for me!

But VERY few cart owners have mastered how to clean them easily...now I know that they pay the PB/Pool Service a fee to clean them!

[huskyrider]

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service.

Here's another reason, ease of installation due to no backwash line.

I disagree on the second sentence, DE filters should also be disassembled and cleaned in April and October. I do agree completely with your first reply to this thread, as a sand filter gets dirty it cleans better.
The only time I suggest changing sand is when a pool owner lets his pool go to pot and it's totally green and won't come back with nuking, filtering, and backwashing.

see ya,
Kelly

[CarlD]

Earlier on I had mentioned that I thought Carts were preferred by PBs in part because of ease of installation.

I am no expert on DE filters so I'll certainly yield to your superior experience and that of other owners.

Your reasons for changing sand are pretty much the same as mine--when you have to, but not before.

But if the filter requires repair and the sand removed to make the repair, I would be leery of re-using the sand. I suppose it could be OK, but new sand is pretty cheap--200 lbs is between $20 and $40.

[chem geek]

I just want to add another reason that cartridge filters are installed by PBs. In some cases, it is that they are required to or strongly recommended to by local ordinances. Where I live, it is strongly recommended that any new pool use a cartridge filter, not DE nor sand. I thought it was required, but it's actually just that use of backwashing filters is strongly discouraged. The reason is due to water restrictions. Though most years we do not have drought, about every 10 years or so we do and the county encourages use of water-wise landscaping, etc.

My PB put in an oversized 4-cartridge filter when my pool could have filtered its volume with a smaller 1-cartridge filter, but I'm glad he did. As Kelly points out, the filter needs far less frequent cleaning. Because I have a pool cover to keep out most leaves and other junk, I can get away with cleaning once a year and I see no increase (or less than 1 psi increase) in pressure over that time (I could probably go for longer than a year without cleaning if I had to). I do a quick rinse with a hose (and manually remove some cedar needles that are clumped) and take the cartridges down to my local pool store for them to soak clean (it costs me around $15 per filter for them to do the cleaning, but I don't mind since it's just once a year). For cost-conscience users, the garbage can soak with dishwashing detergent sounds quite effective. I usually do this just before the start of the swim season when the water is still cold so that I can go a day without running the pump while the filters are getting cleaned.

Richard

[CarlD]

I can't argue with local ordinances. But I suspect most people trying to clean them with a garden hose going for a couple of hours would easily match back-washing in water use.

I don't have to back-wash much--I use the skimmer socks and a robotic cleaner that filters the as well as a DE filter (see the problems I had with my Dolphin).

It sounds like a plastic garbage can devoted to cartridge soaking is a great way to go--but I'm sticking with my sand filter. We have water restrictions due to several years of drought that were never lifted, but pool filters weren't affected.

[waterbear]

I can't argue with local ordinances. But I suspect most people trying to clean them with a garden hose going for a couple of hours would easily match back-washing in water use.

A couple of hours? it only takes a few minutes. I have a Clean and Clear 150 on my pool and I clean it monthly (with pool open year long and a 9-10 month swim season). I don't need to since I never have any increase in pressure and could probably go about 8 months to a year, if not longer) before I got an 8 psi increase. I have gone as long as 3 months between cleanings and had no pressure increase but cleaning the cart did become more of a chore so I have learned the hard way that, just like with your pool water, a little bit of preventive montly care on your cart will make the maintenance MUCH easier!!!!!!! Carl, You always tell people to stay ahead of their water. Well, it makes just as much sense to stay ahead of your cartridge!!!!!!! It takes me about 15 minutes to pop the filter open, carry the cart to the front of the house and hose it off on the driveway, hose it off, then carry it back. (actually I have 2 carts so I pop the clean one in first and reassemble the filter and clean out the pump basket. The whole process is very quick! Now if I had 4 carts to deal with such as in the filter that Huskyrider is suggesting then I would probably wait for year or more before I attempted to clean it or I would call someone in to do it!!!!!!!)

It sounds like a plastic garbage can devoted to cartridge soaking is a great way to go
and really only necessary once a year or at best twice a year if the cart is hosed off on a regular basis!
--but I'm sticking with my sand filter. We have water restrictions due to several years of drought that were never lifted, but pool filters weren't affected.

BTW, I agree with Huskeyrider that DE filters are better off being broken down and cleaned and not backwashed, as I have often stated here in the forum!

[CarlD]

Evan,
Since I'm not a cartridge filter owner, I have to yield to your superior experience. I've just read all the horror stories.

I've said it before and I'll probably have to say it again: Those owners who figure out the secrets of how to maintain their cartridge filters swear by them. But other owners generally swear AT them. Or, as I just found out, shell out mucho dinero to the PB/Pool Services to clean them for them.

Carl

[mas985]

I just want to add another reason that cartridge filters are installed by PBs. In some cases, it is that they are required to or strongly recommended to by local ordinances. Where I live, it is strongly recommended that any new pool use a cartridge filter, not DE nor sand. I thought it was required, but it's actually just that use of backwashing filters is strongly discouraged. The reason is due to water restrictions. Though most years we do not have drought, about every 10 years or so we do and the county encourages use of water-wise landscaping, etc.

My PB put in an oversized 4-cartridge filter when my pool could have filtered its volume with a smaller 1-cartridge filter, but I'm glad he did. As Kelly points out, the filter needs far less frequent cleaning. Because I have a pool cover to keep out most leaves and other junk, I can get away with cleaning once a year and I see no increase (or less than 1 psi increase) in pressure over that time (I could probably go for longer than a year without cleaning if I had to). I do a quick rinse with a hose (and manually remove some cedar needles that are clumped) and take the cartridges down to my local pool store for them to soak clean (it costs me around $15 per filter for them to do the cleaning, but I don't mind since it's just once a year). For cost-conscience users, the garbage can soak with dishwashing detergent sounds quite effective. I usually do this just before the start of the swim season when the water is still cold so that I can go a day without running the pump while the filters are getting cleaned.

Richard

Where I'm at, the city requires separation tanks for DE or Sand which pretty much discouraged me from that since it I would have to clean the tank which is not much different then the cartridges.
I also supersized my filter and could go many years without cleaning it although I usually clean it at least once a year and I don't see any pressure rise at all. It takes less than an hour to clean four large cartridges and since I use high pressure hose, the flow rates are not that great so I am sure that I am using way less water than I would if I needed to backwash.