2 speed pump or not? Also the great DE debate!

[skamp]

I was wondering if you guys could weigh in on a pump question/concern. I did cross post this in the building forum as well. I talked with by PB them about getting a 2 speed pump and they seemed reluctant but will do it if I want to. I need to give them an answer real soon.

I wanted to do this so I could run it on low at night for chlorine generation, etc. The pump they have spec'ed is a 2HP and that is the other reason I want a 2 speed.

They also have a 1.5-2HP spec'ed for the water features. I asked about doing a 2 speed on that as well to run the waterfall at a lower rate as opposed to reducing flow via the valve. They said the way it will be set up is the valve will have a bypass so it will not put backpressure on the pump. I also have 2 of the foam jet bubblers from crystal fountains and I need a good amount of GPM for those. What would you do in this situation? They use all sta-rite max-e-pro pumps so it would be the 2 speed sta-rite controller by either a Pentair EasyTouch or Jandy RS8 (I still
have not made up my mind).

The last question is I am 99% set on getting the DE filter. They use the sta-rite system 3 modular DE so I can always switch to cart if I want to. I chose the DE becuase I want the clearest water. They are using the 60 sqft so I assume it won't have to be cleaned very often (few times a season).

I really appreciate any help on this!

Steve

[mas985]

Why did they spec the main pump at 2 HP? The only reason I would go with a 2 HP main pump is because the pool has a spa that shares the pump. Is this the case? Also, what size is the pool? Depending on the spa and pool sizes, there are probably several options. 2 speed pump is one option but you could also go with separate pumps for the spa and pool which may be better for larger pools. Key parameters for pump decisions are:

Pool Size (gallons)
Spa and number of Jets
Piping size and number of pool to pad runs

As for the water features, I decided against them for my pool. You may be aware of this already but the water features combined with a SWG usually means the pool will continuously have rapidly rising PH levels. Be prepared to have a lot of acid on hand. Mine rises fairly quickly even without the water features (1qt/week in summer). Also, water features will increase evaporation rates so be prepared for a large water bill as well. Water features are great eye candy but they come at a cost.

[skamp]

Why did they spec the main pump at 2 HP? The only reason I would go with a 2 HP main pump is because the pool has a spa that shares the pump. Is this the case? Also, what size is the pool? Depending on the spa and pool sizes, there are probably several options. 2 speed pump is one option but you could also go with separate pumps for the spa and pool which may be better for larger pools. Key parameters for pump decisions are:

Pool Size (gallons)
Spa and number of Jets
Piping size and number of pool to pad runs

As for the water features, I decided against them for my pool. You may be aware of this already but the water features combined with a SWG usually means the pool will continuously have rapidly rising PH levels. Be prepared to have a lot of acid on hand. Mine rises fairly quickly even without the water features (1qt/week in summer). Also, water features will increase evaporation rates so be prepared for a large water bill as well. Water features are great eye candy but they come at a cost.

Sorry, all that stuff was in my main thread under the construction forum. The spec's are:

Pool size - ~20,000
Spa size - 7.5' with 6 jets
Piping size is 2" for pool and 2.5" for spa. I am not sure what you mean by number of runs to the pad but below is the full specs for piping they gave me.

1. PVC Schedule 40
2. CPVC at pump connections
3. Jandy never lube valves
4. Fill line (1) ¾” Sch. 40 Under the Coping w/Valve & Vac Breaker
5. Main drain: Pool - Paramount MDX Main Drain Assembly
6. Spa - Paramount MDX Main Drain Assembly
7. Pool Return inlets: Per Paramount PCC2000
8. Spa Jets: Six (6) w/ Directional Eyeballs
9. Spa/Commons: Two (2) w/ Directional Eyeballs
10. Skimmers: Two (2) Pentair Bermuda w/Equalizer Lines

Note: Standard plumbing package includes 2” direct piping from each skimmer and main drain assembly to the equipment with independent valves. Spas have 2.5” return and suction piping.

Here is a picture of the final layout.



The water features are already a done deal so I will make sure to keep an eye on my PH levels. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Steve

[mas985]

What I mean by pool to pad runs are separate pipes from the main drain to the pad and skimmer to the pad or does he combine the runs at the pool and bring only one pipe back to the pad? Same for the return side, single pipe from pad to pool or multiple pipes?

Anyway, your pool size and plumbing is similar to mine. I went with separate pumps for the pool and spa (jets). This way you can have the jets going while the pool is in circulation if required. I have solar so it is nice to heat the spa up with the solar and then switch the circulation back to the pool to continue heating while I just use the jets on the spa. Also, this allows you to size the pump for just circulation and the spa just for the jets. You could go with a 3/4 single speed and save a bundle on electricity costs. A 2 speed 3/4 HP would save even more. So in summary, here is what I see as your options:

2 Speed 2 HP pump for both spa and pool - Saves some in electricity

OR

3/4 HP pump for pool and 2 HP pump for spa jets - Save some in electricity but adds circulation flexibility.

OR

2 speed 3/4 HP pump for pool and 2 HP pump for spa jets - Saves even more in electricity and maintains flexibility.

OR

Intelliflow pump for most flexibility - Saves most in electricity but without separate spa jet pump although you could add that too $$$$.

The last option is probably not much more than the second to last option and would give you multiple speeds for the spa jets as well.

There are pros and cons for each option and really depends on what you are looking for.

[waterbear]

Just a caution on the Starite system 3 filters. Check the cost of replacement media for it! (Especially the modular [cartridge element] and modular DE [DE/cartridge element]. The system 3 vertical grid DE does not have quite as much filter area as the DE/modular combo but it is a plain DE filter and will be probably more cost effective!) You might find the replacement media to be VERY expensive compared to some comparable filters!
Personally, I like Pentair branded filters. They use a standard type of filter media and replacements are available from most of the third party manufacturers! (but stay away from the Clean and Clear Plus if you go with cartridge, stick to a single cartridge unit!) Pentiar DE filters are excellent also and have a more standard design.
(Starite is owned by Pentair, btw!)

[dawndenise]

I wholeheartedly agree with waterbear's comments on the cost of StaRite's System 3 cartridges!!!

I read about some cartridge owners having a spare set so you could just switch the sets at cleaning time and take your time cleaning the ones you took out. Sounded like a good plan to me, especially if they needed soaking. Then, last summer, I looked at several websites to price the replacement filter elements and got sticker shock! The system has 2 cartridges. The smaller one ran from $92.95 to $149.99, depending on the site and the larger one ran from $183.95 to $239.99. That's $276.90 to $389.98 per set!!!

I'm going with just my original set for now and trying to take VERY good care of it...

[skamp]

I wholeheartedly agree with waterbear's comments on the cost of StaRite's System 3 cartridges!!!

I read about some cartridge owners having a spare set so you could just switch the sets at cleaning time and take your time cleaning the ones you took out. Sounded like a good plan to me, especially if they needed soaking. Then, last summer, I looked at several websites to price the replacement filter elements and got sticker shock! The system has 2 cartridges. The smaller one ran from $92.95 to $149.99, depending on the site and the larger one ran from $183.95 to $239.99. That's $276.90 to $389.98 per set!!!

I'm going with just my original set for now and trying to take VERY good care of it...

That is quite a bit of money! I will make sure to take good care of my filter. Looks like the DE replacement is about $250.00. Thanks!

Steve

[huskyrider]

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

[CarlD]

Ok, here's my take.

First: If you can afford it a 2 speed filter is ALWAYS the way to go. Mine has a simple Hi-Lo switch on the back of the motor. You can ALWAYS run the pump at full speed should you not be happy with lo. But lo is quieter and cheaper.

Second: PBs and pool salesmen LOVE to sell oversized pumps. Go to PoolSolutions.com and read the tip on "The bigger Pump scam". I have 20,000 gal rectangular A/G with a deep end and I use a 1 hp Hayward SuperPump 2 speed--with solar panel, and run it at low speed 95% of the time. Other brands make 3/4 hp 2 speeds that spec out just as good as the Hayward.

Third: a properly sized and maintained filter of ANY type can keep your water clear. PBs love carts--I think they must be high margin, they are an easy install, and for most of the first season they don't need to be cleaned. IF you can figure out how to clean them without making it a half-day soaking-wet job you may be delighted with them.

For DE, they do a WONDERFUL job, but I suspect the consensus here is that an ordinary one, sized properly, will do just as well as a gadgety one, and will be far cheaper to maintain.

You weren't even interested in sand but sand can also perform far better than they lead you to believe. If your sand filter is slightly oversized (mine is) at low speed on your pump in cleans better. As the sand gets older and dirtier, it also filters better. Finally, adding a little DE powder after you back wash will down-right POLISH your water--and I've gone 2 seasons already on an $8. box of DE. You cannot add DE to a cartridge. (there is a fiber substitute for DE that you can use in a cartridge).

You should also use "skimmer socks" in your skimmer with any filter. They go in like a Mr. Coffee filter and hook over it. I find they last about a month and reduce the load on the filter by stopping stuff at the skimmer. Skimmer socks are usually about 3 for $5 or 4 for $10 depending on the brand and the store. Some people use old panty hose but I suspect it doesn't filter nearly as well.

But I think the advice you've gotten here on 2 speed pumps and pump sizing before I chimed in was just right on the money. It's your pool, not the pool builder's.

Since it looks like a concrete/shotcrete/tile/plaster pool, you may want to use Tri-Chlor pucks early on. They add acid and stabilizer(CYA) which you will need. When CYA hits your target level (generally max 50ppm) you'll stop using the pucks.

[skamp]

Wow, great info. I really appreciate all the help on this. Thanks!

Steve