2 speed pump or not? Also the great DE debate!

[skamp]

I wholeheartedly agree with waterbear's comments on the cost of StaRite's System 3 cartridges!!!

I read about some cartridge owners having a spare set so you could just switch the sets at cleaning time and take your time cleaning the ones you took out. Sounded like a good plan to me, especially if they needed soaking. Then, last summer, I looked at several websites to price the replacement filter elements and got sticker shock! The system has 2 cartridges. The smaller one ran from $92.95 to $149.99, depending on the site and the larger one ran from $183.95 to $239.99. That's $276.90 to $389.98 per set!!!

I'm going with just my original set for now and trying to take VERY good care of it...

That is quite a bit of money! I will make sure to take good care of my filter. Looks like the DE replacement is about $250.00. Thanks!

Steve

[huskyrider]

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

[waterbear]

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly, the Clean and Clear plus 520 by Pentair is a 4 cartridge unit. This are a horror to clean and, IMHO, is WAY oversized for a 20k pool! The Clean and Clear 150 has exaxtly the same residential flow rate and turnover capacity and just uses one larger cartridge so it makes maintenance much easier and cartrdge replacement expense much lower. Granted the 150 only has 150 sq in of filter area compared to the 520 sq in of the plus model and only about 1/3 the commercial flow rate but it should be more than adequite for this installation, if not oversized! (a good idea with cartridge filters). If the commercial flow rate is what you are basing it on the Clean and Clear 200 has a commercial flow rate of 75 gpm and all three of this filters have a manufacturer's turnover rate of 48 k gallons in 8 hours so this would be over 2 times the pool volume.
The Pentair FNS series DE filters are excellent, IMHO but do you really think a pool of this size needs the 60 sq in filter? Based on turnover capacity I would think the FNS 48 would be more than adequite.
Evan
Just my 2 cents!

[huskyrider]

Just as two lawyers interpret a law differently so do pool professionals.

The larger filter will easily go a full swim season before it needs cleaning and is rated for a much higher flow rate than one with a third of the swept area.
I'm not saying that the 150 isn't adequate because it is. I use larger filters so the buyer can clean in April and October. IMO, the 150 owner will be cleaning much more often than the 520's owner. I'd rather clean more elements less times than one element more times.
What I've found is that most buyers completely forget about their filters. When they call me back every time the filter gets dirty it's assumed that I'll clean it for free until the end of the first year. I find it easier to pay more for the bigger filter knowing it'll go years without cleaning if necessary.
I've seen lackadaisical homeowners who'll go 3 or more years without cleaning their filter. These large multi-cart filters will circulate even with more dirt in them than you can put in a full size wheelbarrow. I've seen it firsthand on many occasions.

I'm not trying to imply that all homeowners are the same, I'm going by what I've seen year in and year out. I've had plenty of homeowners who'd just assume not clean and simply pay to have the elements cleaned or replaced. For those the larger filter makes perfect sense. You don't have to pay for filter cleans as often. In our area a filter cleaning costs the same whether it's one element or 4 elements. If I were in the service and repair business in addition to pool construction I'd install smaller filters and cross my fingers that I get the call every time the element gets dirty and needs cleaning.

See ya,
Kelly

[CarlD]

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service. That's clever thinking.

DE filters do need screens or fingers maintained, and some people pay for that once a season. Others do it themselves. Not being an expert on DE I don't know the details.

Sand filters only require back-washing, and that's no effort at all. There's no way I'd pay anyone (other than my kid's allowance) to do THAT for me!

But VERY few cart owners have mastered how to clean them easily...now I know that they pay the PB/Pool Service a fee to clean them!

[huskyrider]

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service.

Here's another reason, ease of installation due to no backwash line.

I disagree on the second sentence, DE filters should also be disassembled and cleaned in April and October. I do agree completely with your first reply to this thread, as a sand filter gets dirty it cleans better.
The only time I suggest changing sand is when a pool owner lets his pool go to pot and it's totally green and won't come back with nuking, filtering, and backwashing.

see ya,
Kelly

[CarlD]

Earlier on I had mentioned that I thought Carts were preferred by PBs in part because of ease of installation.

I am no expert on DE filters so I'll certainly yield to your superior experience and that of other owners.

Your reasons for changing sand are pretty much the same as mine--when you have to, but not before.

But if the filter requires repair and the sand removed to make the repair, I would be leery of re-using the sand. I suppose it could be OK, but new sand is pretty cheap--200 lbs is between $20 and $40.

[CarlD]

Ok, here's my take.

First: If you can afford it a 2 speed filter is ALWAYS the way to go. Mine has a simple Hi-Lo switch on the back of the motor. You can ALWAYS run the pump at full speed should you not be happy with lo. But lo is quieter and cheaper.

Second: PBs and pool salesmen LOVE to sell oversized pumps. Go to PoolSolutions.com and read the tip on "The bigger Pump scam". I have 20,000 gal rectangular A/G with a deep end and I use a 1 hp Hayward SuperPump 2 speed--with solar panel, and run it at low speed 95% of the time. Other brands make 3/4 hp 2 speeds that spec out just as good as the Hayward.

Third: a properly sized and maintained filter of ANY type can keep your water clear. PBs love carts--I think they must be high margin, they are an easy install, and for most of the first season they don't need to be cleaned. IF you can figure out how to clean them without making it a half-day soaking-wet job you may be delighted with them.

For DE, they do a WONDERFUL job, but I suspect the consensus here is that an ordinary one, sized properly, will do just as well as a gadgety one, and will be far cheaper to maintain.

You weren't even interested in sand but sand can also perform far better than they lead you to believe. If your sand filter is slightly oversized (mine is) at low speed on your pump in cleans better. As the sand gets older and dirtier, it also filters better. Finally, adding a little DE powder after you back wash will down-right POLISH your water--and I've gone 2 seasons already on an $8. box of DE. You cannot add DE to a cartridge. (there is a fiber substitute for DE that you can use in a cartridge).

You should also use "skimmer socks" in your skimmer with any filter. They go in like a Mr. Coffee filter and hook over it. I find they last about a month and reduce the load on the filter by stopping stuff at the skimmer. Skimmer socks are usually about 3 for $5 or 4 for $10 depending on the brand and the store. Some people use old panty hose but I suspect it doesn't filter nearly as well.

But I think the advice you've gotten here on 2 speed pumps and pump sizing before I chimed in was just right on the money. It's your pool, not the pool builder's.

Since it looks like a concrete/shotcrete/tile/plaster pool, you may want to use Tri-Chlor pucks early on. They add acid and stabilizer(CYA) which you will need. When CYA hits your target level (generally max 50ppm) you'll stop using the pucks.

[skamp]

Wow, great info. I really appreciate all the help on this. Thanks!

Steve

[simsjim]

Ok, here's my take.

If your sand filter is slightly oversized (mine is) at low speed on your pump in cleans better. As the sand gets older and dirtier, it also filters better. Finally, adding a little DE powder after you back wash will down-right POLISH your water--and I've gone 2 seasons already on an $8. box of DE. .

VERY Interesting, and helpful! see my thread on "Pentair pump filter to replace Hayward" Gives me more food for thought......