SWG with liner type indoor pool.

[deep_blue]

.3 FC
7.6
80 TA
liner pool indoors
in use 8 months+

Further down the SWG path..... can someone help me understand / explain,

that if I connect the metal stainless parts in the liner pool "they are basically floating on the liner now not touching the outside of the pool.....to an earth ground" , will there be a reduction in rust from the SWG environment on the stainless screws and other stainless steel parts ? Will I create any new problems?

Does connecting the SS parts to ground stop metal rusting?

The only negative I have with SWG is the SS rust, I replaced screws but still have more than I want of rust.

If I can not stop the rust, next if I go back to bleach and an ORB "or some controlled chlorination" control I might probably have none of the rust issues.

Searching for a solution. Anyone knowledgeable about rust conditions and stopping them.

Thanks in advance.
deep_blue

[chem geek]

I am no expert in corrosion, but have stumbled upon some people who have been saying that SWG pools are a much bigger problem than non-SWG pools. This link is to a blog that has some photos of corrosion and some speculative theories as to why. I've also started this thread in The China Shop to talk about these issues, speculate on what's going on and solutions, and eventually come to some consensus that can be presented to this general forum.

Generally speaking, all metal parts touching the water in a pool are supposed to be connected together with a "bonding wire" that makes sure there is no potential difference between them. This is not connected to "ground" partly to avoid stray currents developing from other electrical items connected to ground, but I saw reports of possible small shocks with the traditional bonding wire approach and that some jurisdictions were considering adding a requirement to connect the bonding wire to a wire mesh in the hardscape and coping near the edge of the pool. At any rate, I do not believe that the corrosion is due to the bonding wire and galvanic corrosion, but you should be able to very easily determine that by disconnecting the wire from the rusted component and insert a current meter between the wire and the rusted metal component. If you do this, let us know what you find out as this would be helpful in determining what is really going on.

My hunch is that it is the saltier water that is causing greater rates of corrosion. There are different grades of stainless steel and some are resistent to salt water while others are not. So I believe it's a combination of the salt water plus inferior (for the salt environment) stainless steel (see this link for a Wikipedia article on Stainless Steel and note the difference between Types 304 and 316 as well as the discussion on Pitting Corrosion). I doubt that grounding will help, but you can certainly try 1) grounding one component, 2) disconnecting the bonding wire from another, and then see which does better.

Perhaps others with more experience and knowledge in this area can be more helpful.

In my own pool, which is not SWG, I had some rusting in the steel mountings of stainless steel bars, but this was only where Trichlor in a feeder "parked" itself as I had tethered it to one of the bars. The acidity from the Trichlor was the more likely culprit in this case and needless to say, I don't use Trichlor anymore (also because I ended up with over 100 ppm CYA).

Richard

[deep_blue]

thanks for the insights....chem geek.

I have been using a Jandy unit and I wonder if copper corrosion and SS rusting is the "result of SWG". Removing it and going back to chlorine only, is a better choice for my pool.

Seems that bonding to earth does not stop SS rusting. Is this a more true that false statement?

IS there anyone here that can confirm or explain this idea?

Since I do not like the rust appearance what about an ORP unit ?
Any pro/con on models and features?

SWG at first use has ++ but long term there might be many more -- than I imagined.

UGLY rust is the first one I see every time I swim.

Please guide me on this direction of understanding. I am reaching a cross-road on rust but easy SWG & BBB and cost $.

[chem geek]

I have a few questions for you. In your first post you listed the following:

.3 FC
7.6
80 TA
liner pool indoors

Is that a typo or do you have 0.3 ppm FC? Did you mean 3 ppm? Also, since you have a vinyl liner instead of plaster/gunite, do you have any added calcium in your pool? You clearly have added carbonate as represented by the 80 ppm TA and your pH is at 7.6. Because your pool is indoors, it has 0 ppm CYA, is that right? Or do you have CYA because the SWG requires it and if so, what level is it? There are pros and cons about having CYA in indoor pools, but that's for a separate discussion we can have later.

One thing you might try before shucking the SWG and salt is to get to calcium carbonate saturation for water balance. It is possible that with enough calcium carbonate, that corrosion of metal could be inhibited. This is generally true in non-salt water situations -- I just don't know if it will also help in this saltier case. To know what level of calcium you should have, I need to know if you've got any CYA (probably not), if you've used Borax for raising pH (probably not), the salt level or the TDS level (or both if you know both), and the temperature of the water.

Richard

[deep_blue]

Thanks for the reply 3 ppm yesterday 5 ppm today. Calicum hardness was set to a "local water source level" none added.

CYA is O never used CYA due to indoor type. I thought that was correct.

..."One thing you might try before shucking the SWG and salt is to get to calcium carbonate saturation for water balance. It is possible that with enough calcium carbonate, that corrosion of metal could be inhibited. This is generally true in non-salt water situations -- I just don't know if it will also help in this saltier case."

Is calcium needed for liner type pools or for some other reason ? I read here it can sort of protect metals in a pool.? Is that what I would need it for since I am liner type?

..."To know what level of calcium you should have, I need to know if you've got any CYA (probably not), if you've used Borax for raising pH (probably not), the salt level or the TDS level (or both if you know both), and the temperature of the water."

I have not used borax to date, is this a good idea? Water temp 89 deg. F

I am moving toward a non SWG environment. Seems that SWG is just too
tought on the SS and it can not be replaced "just screws" .

If you can guide me on this ... goal is 7.6 ph, FC 3 ppm, TA 80 Calcium hardness ? I had pool both with SWG and without. SWG was nice and algae and water were pleasent but "the rusting is way too much".

I was think an ORP control might be the closest to low maintenance. "like SWG was.

Thanks in advance

[chem geek]

Having a pool saturated with Calcium Carbonate clearly is of benefit when there is plaster/gunite/grout exposed to water as it prevents corrosion (dissolving) of such surfaces. There is also supposed to be benefit in preventing metal corrosion by having a thin film of Calcium Carbonate protecting metal surfaces or perhaps otherwise interfering with corrosion processes. This kind of protection is usually mentioned as protecting copper in heat exchangers. However, what I do not know is if it will protect stainless steel and if it still works in a saltier environment.

First, test your CH level and let us know what that is (just so we have a baseline to understand when corrosion might occur). The Taylor K-2006 has all the tests you need except salt which is K-1766. I would strongly suggest that you then add enough Calcium Chloride to your pool to get to at least 250 ppm Calcium Hardness (CH) which will still be just slightly corrosive, but in a gas-fired heater (when turned on) will only be just slightly scaling which is probably a decent balance. You can then see if this reduces or eliminates your corrosion problem. You are the first user on this forum that I can recall reporting such corrosion, especially so quickly, so I suspect that the lack of calcium may be the issue (in addition to the salt) as most do add at least some calcium even in vinyl pools (when they have gas-fired heaters) even if not to full saturation. For this calculation I assumed you had 3000 ppm salt in your pool.

As for CYA, it is traditionally not needed for indoor pools since there is no sunlight to breakdown the chlorine (and CYA combines with most of the chlorine to form a substance that is more resistent from breakdown from sunlight), but SWG systems usually require high levels of CYA, typically 70-80 ppm, in order to operate more efficiently. Of course, since the chlorine losses in an indoor pool are so much less, the higher efficiency is not as necessary. Just curious, to maintain the 3 ppm FC or so in your pool, how long do you have to run your SWG and at what power level?

Independent of the SWG, have you noticed that without CYA in your indoor pool that your swimsuits wear out faster -- the rubber deteriorates and they start to fade? My wife uses an indoor pool at a community center in the winter time and finds that her swimsuits are ruined after just one winter season while swimming in our own outdoor pool over the summer has no noticeable change in the swimsuits. I believe the difference is the use of CYA in the outdoor pool which significantly cuts down disinfecting chlorine (hypochlorous acid, HOCl) concentration. I personnally am considering recommending that a small amount of CYA (around 10-20 ppm) be used in indoor pools to reduce the chlorine concentration which not only should make swimsuits last longer and the air smell less like chlorine, but should also reduce the disinfection by-products (DBPs) that are produced. The other recommendation, especially for commercial indoor pools with heavy bather load, would be to use a weekly maintenance dose of non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, KMPS) which should eliminate DBPs, but this use of non-chlorine shock is probably not necessary in a residential environment. Note that these are NOT mainstream recommendations common to this forum -- I'm just letting you know my thoughts on this, that's all.

As you can tell, I'm not giving up on SWG as quickly as you are and want to find ALL the factors that lead to corrosion, not just salt. To convert to a regular non-salt pool, you'll have to not only stop using the SWG, but will have to drain and refill most of your pool water to get rid of most of the salt. As for ORP controllers, the issue isn't so much an automated sensor as "what is the source of chlorine"? Is it chlorinating liquid or bleach injected into the water with a peristaltic pump? Your current SWG is just "set" at a certain chlorine production level so an alternative chlorine system would be similar. An ORP controller adds a new element of measurement to your pool and there are separate issues associated with ORP controllers.

[EDIT] Another factor in your pool that *might* contribute to the faster corrosion is not using CYA since the actual disinfecting and oxidizing form of chlorine (hypochlorous acid, HOCl) will be at levels over 80 times higher than found in the same pool (i.e. with the same measured FC level) with 70-80 ppm CYA in it. As mentioned above, you wouldn't want to use very much CYA in an indoor pool -- only about 10-20 ppm, but that would cut down the oxidizing (and possible corrosion) power of chlorine by a factor of about 10-20. [END-EDIT]
[EDIT] Sean (who works for an SWG manufacturer, is very experienced and knowledgeable, participates in this forum as "PoolSean", and is an upstanding decent human being...well, he seems like he is anyway...) has experience indicating that CYA levels as low as 15 ppm in indoor pool help prevent corrosion. [END-EDIT]

Richard

[Poolsean]

Wait a second...how did I get involved as "a decent human being"? = P

[chem geek]

deep_blue,

Just wondering what you have ended up doing in your situation. You said you were looking at moving to a non-SWG environment, but did you first try adding CYA to the water (a small amount of even 10-20 ppm) to see if that virtually stops the corrosion? Or did you just end up converting to a non-SWG pool? If you haven't converted to non-SWG yet, it would be great if you could try the CYA to see if that helps. It won't hurt you since you'll have to replace the water anyway to go to non-SWG (to remove the salt) if you decide to do that after any CYA test.

Richard

[deep_blue]

Update

Lost the SWG .... corrosion went away on Stainless, I did not have a choice
to change the SS.

Is CYA a help in an indoor vinyl pool ? What level ? What are the Pro & Cons ?

CYA to reduce smell could help sometimes. (along with my Neg pressure air system)

I am looking for a chlorine feed that is automatic or controlled just like the SWG was. I do miss that part. It was easy but the corrosion was way too much.

Please feel free to comment.

deep_blue

[chem geek]

deep_blue,

Just wanted to clarify a few things in your post.

1) When you got rid of the SWG (and replaced the SS) did you also drain and refill your water to remove (most of) the salt? Do you know your current salt level?

2) I assume you didn't get a chance to try adding CYA in your SWG pool to see if that helped, is that correct?

As for your question about CYA with an indoor vinyl pool, I would normally say that using a small amount of it, in the 10-20 ppm range, would be beneficial for a number of reasons: it would reduce the "clean" smell of chlorine (not chloramines) since less chlorine would be volatized, it would reduce the degradation of swimsuits (fading and rubber deterioration), it would reduce corrosion rates even further, it would reduce the rate of production of disinfection by-products (DPBs). However, there are downsides: it makes shocking the pool to achieve breakpoint harder to do. Also, waste had added CYA to an indoor pool mentioned in this thread based on what I had suggested and ended up with an alage disaster, though other things went on as well including a larger than desired amount of CYA added and covering the pool. So I would feel really awful if you added CYA and had problems. I wish I could be more confident in recommending it -- my gut says a small amount would be OK, but it's hard to remove once you've added it.

As for the problems of shocking the pool to get rid of Combined Chlorine (CC), an alternative (regardless of whether or not there is CYA in the pool) is to use a weekly maintenance dose of non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, KMPS) which will oxidize organics before chlorine gets a chance to. This keeps CC low and also virtually eliminates DPBs. The downside to using non-chlorine shock is that it introduces sulfates into the water and it interferes with the Total Chlorine test, though there is an interference remover from Taylor, K-2041 for around $20.

Richard