Wow...this is a job for the experts

[bluecamel]

New couple just moved in across the street. Previous owners told them to keep the chlorine high. Popular pool store has been perpetuating the problems that have now led us here. I am a convert, former newbie who has had no pool problems since I found this forum. This one is out of my league, so here goes. I am using a Taylor K-2006 testing kit.

Vinyl pool (not positive but I think 18,000 gal)
ph: so low I couldn't measure it (30 drops of base demand made no dent)
alkalinity: Test was red from the beginning (I think because of the cya????)
cya: dot disappeared well before the 100 mark on my tester (high)
chlorine: 1.0
Located in Alabama, so water is cool but not freezing yet

My husband and I had a similar cya when we bought our house/pool and had to drain portions of the water in 3 cycles to lower our cya and calcium. I am leaning towards recommending the same, but I need help with the alkalinity/ph issues since I don't know what that alkalinity result means. I would also like to know your thoughts about the cya and whether to recommend that they consider draining some of the current pool water. My neighbors are going to join the forum as well and will be reading along. Thanks in advance. Man the pool stores stink.

[waste]

New couple just moved in across the street. Previous owners told them to keep the chlorine high. Popular pool store has been perpetuating the problems that have now led us here. I am a convert, former newbie who has had no pool problems since I found this forum. This one is out of my league, so here goes. I am using a Taylor K-2006 testing kit.

Vinyl pool (not positive but I think 18,000 gal)
ph: so low I couldn't measure it (30 drops of base demand made no dent)
alkalinity: Test was red from the beginning (I think because of the cya????)
cya: dot disappeared well before the 100 mark on my tester (high)
chlorine: 1.0
Located in Alabama, so water is cool but not freezing yet

My husband and I had a similar cya when we bought our house/pool and had to drain portions of the water in 3 cycles to lower our cya and calcium. I am leaning towards recommending the same, but I need help with the alkalinity/ph issues since I don't know what that alkalinity result means. I would also like to know your thoughts about the cya and whether to recommend that they consider draining some of the current pool water. My neighbors are going to join the forum as well and will be reading along. Thanks in advance. Man the pool stores stink.

(The pool stores stink because of all the chems they store there )
Seriously, I have seen the exact same thing on so many pools, it's not funny (unless you don't like the pool owner - in which case, it's a reason to raise a toast ) From my experience with many pools with the same problem, they have used a tri-chlor feeder and not bothered to test (even weekly ) their pH and alk, this results in a very high cya and a very! low pH. When I see it, it's because the owners have dissolved the heat exchanger in their heater (acid likes to disolve metals, like copper), and we have to do a $1200 replacement. I also have seen the 'warning signs - the nut on the DE grids will be 'brick red' or 'teal green' when we clean the filter. If your friends have a heater, tell them to start saving up for a heat exchanger.
As you may know from reading this site, trichlor pucks have a pH of ~ 2.5 and will raise the cya, if left unchecked you have a recipe for algae and rotting metal. At the very least, your friends should test their water once a week, AND adjust whatever isn't right (I've seen pool owners who say that they 'DO test every week'(but don't doanything about the levels being off, "we were only told to test every week" ) In addition to this, their liner has most probably been weakened by it's acid bath.
My best advice for them is to come here and learn how to properly care for their investment, and do it in a less expensive way. Pools are expensive to install, but the upkeep can be fairly cheep when one uses the advice and methods from www.poolsolutions.com and here

[bluecamel]

I agree. This forum saved us countless hours. But what does the all red alk test mean????? In combo with the cya I'm not sure if the core alk is the problem. What do I adjust first. Is water exchange where i should start and then work on alk/ph balance?

I agree about possible damage to liner and poly. No heater in Alabama thank goodness.

Watermom? Any thoughts?

[CarlD]

Your pH is SO low I'm amazed the vinyl liner hasn't dissolved. You FIRST need to get pH normal--add box after box of Borax until you have a ph of at least 7.0 Now you can take your other measures and you may find that CYA is quite different.

You'll have to check the liner for damage from that low pH. I absolutely agree with Waste's assessment of what happened, except for the heater.

Fix pH first, then re-measure the other items.

[chem geek]

But what does the all red alk test mean?????

I believe the Total Alkalinity test from Taylor (and others) uses a combination of "bromocresol green" and "methyl red" pH indicators that turn from green to red at around a pH of 4.5 so the fact that the TA test starts out red means that the pH is already below 4.5

I would expect that the water is not only low in pH, but probably has much of the carbonate buffer removed from it as well (the acid from the TriChlor tabs will lower pH and the TA while the carbon dioxide will outgas quickly so I suspect the TA is also quite low). Therefore, I recommend adding Soda Ash, aka [EDIT] Washing Soda [END-EDIT] (not Baking Soda) aka Sodium Carbonate (typical "pH Up" in pool stores) since that will raise both your TA and your pH. If you follow Carl's advice and add Borax, then you'll likely also need to add Baking Soda, aka Sodium Bicarbonate.

If your TA is really very low, then adding relatively small amounts of Borax by itself will cause fairly large swings in pH. Add some, wait to circulate (an hour should be OK if the pump is running) retest pH and add more if needed, etc. If you add either the Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate, then you won't get as large a pH swing.

Richard

[CarlD]

Chem_geek is not wrong, of course. Your T/A is probably 'way too low. But my recommendation for Borax is to get pH into the normal range so you can see what else is going on. Baking Soda's cheap, so is Borax.

But if you do go the soda ash route, Arm&Hammer WASHING Soda is the right stuff (Sodium Carbonate) and even cheaper (in my supermarket) than Borax per pound. The Washing Soda box is Yellow, not orange. It will be in the laundry products section.

Either way should be fine, but you MUST get pH up.

[Poconos]

If I was ever in a situation where the chems are as messed up as they seem I think I'd try rweaking things on a small scale first, just to see if whatever you do yields the expected results. a.k.a the biggest plastic trash can you can find and scale the chemical additions accordingly. Any damage that can be done is probably already done so the additional time it takes messing with a trashcan full of pool water won't matter. Can also save a bunch of $$$.
Al

[bluecamel]

Actually 4 boxes in, but when I measured after 3 there had been no measurable change. Alk test still red from the get go and ph test still holding on sunshine yellow. We will add more the rest of the day.

I am surprised since the alk is so low, I thought the ph would swing up more quickly. I will update agin after 6 boxes.

Is there a point at which I get no change that I should start doing something else (6 boxes, 7 boxes maybe??????)?

[chem geek]

I am surprised since the alk is so low, I thought the ph would swing up more quickly.

If the pH were 4.0, then it would take about 5 boxes of Borax to raise the pH to 7.0 and almost 7 boxes to get to 7.5

If the pH were 3.0, then it would take about 11 boxes of Borax to raise the pH to 7.0 and 13 boxes to raise the pH to 7.5

So it would seem that you need to keep going. If you use Borax, then you will end up with high levels of borates in the pool. Each box of Borax adds about 3.6 ppm Boron (Borates) to the pool. So a positive side effect of raising the pH in this pool is that it will be close to having the algicidal properties of the pool that is talked about in this thread.

Richard

[CarlD]

Please beware that a pH maintained at 3 in a vinyl pool may well have already ruined the liner.

Sorry to be the bearer of depressing news....