Adding Super Blue or other Floculant ?

[mbar]

Dave, I was wondering if you think it would be a good idea to use flock after a stain treatment, when the stain is all off and there is enough sequestering agent in the water. I was thinking that if you use flock, then shut down the pump overnight, then vacuum to waste, it would then get rid of some of the metal that was in the water - or is the metal that combined with the sequestering agent just going to stay suspended in the water? I really don't know about real chemistry, so please excuse me if this is a silly question!

[duraleigh]

Hi, Marie,

Well, it's certainly not a silly question...in fact, it seems like a good idea. I really don't know enough to have an opinion but, somehow, I get a feeling it's not that easy.

I believe that flocs work by attaching to small particles making them bigger and sinking them....I may be wrong...not positive.

I think sequestering agents work by actually putting the metal particles into something other than a solid state, therefore, the floc may not have anything to "glom" on to and sink it.

If the floc did work, then it seems that would be a surefire method for removing metals but I don't think I've ever heard Ben or anyone say there was any other way short of draining and refill to truly rid your pool of metals.

Now that I've blown four paragraphs of hot air, maybe we'll get a metal guru in here to help us out!!

Dave S.

P.S. RT, we didn't mean to hijack your post...this is a really interesting thought Marie has. Please post your results back on this thread......maybe the moderators will move us "metal-heads" where we belong!!

[waterbear]

Dave, I was wondering if you think it would be a good idea to use flock after a stain treatment, when the stain is all off and there is enough sequestering agent in the water. I was thinking that if you use flock, then shut down the pump overnight, then vacuum to waste, it would then get rid of some of the metal that was in the water - or is the metal that combined with the sequestering agent just going to stay suspended in the water? I really don't know about real chemistry, so please excuse me if this is a silly question!

No question is silly if you don't know the answer! Not asking it is silly!
Floc works on particulate matter suspended (NOT dissolved) in the water which makes it cloudy. If the particles are too small for the filter they will continue to stay in the water. Floc will cause the smaller colloidial particles to clump together into larger particles that the filter will then catch. IMHO floc would be most useful with a sand filter which can filter to about 60 microns and less so with both cartridge and DE filters which can filter much smaller particles (this is just my opinion folks...we can agree to disagree!)
Floc would have absolutely no effect on chelated metals in the water
(they are dissolved in solution) unless the metals were starting to precipitate out(coming out of solution as particles) which is what happens when they show up as stain (they come out of solution and deposit on the surface of the pool).

[mbar]

Evan,
That is what I thought, I used floc about 6 years ago I wwas using baquacil and decided to switch to chlorine. The pool company closed my pool for the winter only putting in algacide and baquacil shock. When they opened the pool in the spring they put in chlorine - what a mess! They didn't know what happened - the water turned a florecent green - then they threw in a bunch of calcium, cya, and kept shocking the pool. Needless to say I ended up with a milky green pool! The water was so unbalanced that I had to drain about 1/2 the water out and start over. When I did get the water cleared up there were brown stains all over it. That's when I decided to do the chemicals myself. I got the stains out, and then put n floc. I didn't get the stains back for the rest of that year. Unfortuanately the next year I got stains again, got rid of them, but didn't use floc. I did get some back. I have not used floc since, but I was thinking after you said that the metals can't be filtered out maybe if they could be somehow made heavier than the water by binding onto something, they could then be filtered out. I still don't know where my metal comes from in my pool. The only thing I can think of is my heater, I think it may be put in after the pump. My well water doesn't test that it has iron, but I do have hard water. I found this website three years ago and I have learned so much.. But I still don't know what is causing my stains, just how to get rid of them. If you think of anything please let me know. I don't worry about the stains since I can get rid of them, but it is driving me crazy trying to figure out where they are coming from, and if the metal can be filtered out of the water once it is back in suspension.

[waterbear]

Marie,
have you tested for metals? ( I KNOW it's a stupid question but I HAVE to ask!) What were the results? Sorry to say that much of the pool store testing results for metals are bogus. They just don't know what they are doing sometimes. Copper is pretty easy to test for but some of the other tests can be a bit tricky. You might want to get your fill water tested (assuming it's your house water) by calling up one of these water purification companies that do free water analysis and compare that to what the pool store is saying. Iron is fairly commen in well water in many parts of the country and is also pretty easy to remove from the fill water with proper treatment. From my understanding an ion exchange column is a cost effective solution. First thing is to find out what the metal is and try and figure out where it's coming from. Iron would not come from a heater but might come from galvainized pipes if it is not in your fill water.
BTW, what type of filter do you have and was it thoroughly cleand out after the "bacquaswamp"? I find it interesting that the stains appeared after the conversion from biguinide. The conversion process requires a high level of chlorine to oxidize the biguinide in the pool and that high oxidizer level is also a prime contributor to staining.

there might be no cure but if you have a workable solution I would stick with that each year. I would LOVE to find a surefire way to remove metals from poolwater that worked. I could patent it and retire!

[rtpatter]

Dave S.

Here is the answer. The clarifier definitely worked. I put in 12 ounces of clarifier(and nothing else, no more bleach was added only the chorine puck floater that had been in since the beginning) in a 23k inground vinyl pool after days of socking bleach to it and within 8 to 10 hours it went from a semi clear blue to the crystal clear water I remember.

I think there are 2 main reasons for this in my case. One is pollen. I had a loop loc cover on over the winter and the pollen in the early part of the spring went right into the water in addition to all the pollen that is still floating around in the air. Combine this with the fact I changed out my sand late last year and I think the result was my new sand wasn't "dirty" enough to catch all the tiny microns that were clouding my water. The bleach did a great job of destroying the algae and sanitizing the pool however my filter needed a little help in catching all the tiny particals that were clouding the water. I'm not saying that everyone to should run to the store and buy liquid clarifier but in my case it did resolve the issue. However remember I had the pool balanced before I tried the clarifier. I like most in this forum believe that most cloudy water issues can be resolved with grocery store products however if you have a sand filter particularly with new sand then you would probably benefit from a little clarifier.

Russ

[mbar]

Ha, ha, wouldn't that be great!! Hey you never know - stranger things have happened, many things have been invented by people trying to make life easier for themselves. I didin't have my water tested by the municipal water company because they wanted $95 to do it. I bought a water testing kit from Walmart for testing my water. It came up without any iron. I always add my water through the skimmer too. I know about the conversion from baquacil now - after finding this board. When I did mine the pool store said not to add any baquacil at the end of the season (I only used baquacil for 1 season). They didn't use any to close, and whenthey opened they did the conversion. I did change my sand the next year (after reading what it does to the sand on this board!). One thing they did do what to put tons of calcium in my pool - I don't know why, and I don't remember how high it was, but I took my water to a different pool store and they told me to drain part of my water, refill, and drain again. The calcium was clouding my pool. I got my calcium down to the right level, but when my water cleared, I did the stain treatment, that's when I figured a lot of the "florescent green" was not the water, but because the whole pool was stained yellow, the yellow with the blue of the water made the watter look green!! After I did the stain treatment the pool came out beautiful - surface all white, and water blue! I spent so much money that year, because they were telling me to put chemicals in, and then telling me to put chemicals in to take out the ones I just put in. You know "pool stored". I kept telling them that the water didn't look like a normal green - but they came to see and said it was algae, just keep throwing in chlorine!. That's when I decided to take over the chemicals in my pool. Two years later I did help a friend of mine go through the conversion , and the green was a very different color. After finding this board, I hardly put anything in my pool but bleach, baking soda & borax. My water has been beautiful and easy to care for, I can live with the staining I get, and will keep on trying to find out the cause. First I thought it was the calcium (calcium is a metal), then I decided to keep very low calcium in my pool (fiberglass doesn't need calcium, but I like to keep it at 130 - 150, just in case of the heater), but I still got stains. Then I figured out it was the high clorine level. It was confirmed when I found this board. I just read that other info that fiberglass has a negative charge and can attract any metal from the water - but I can't find anything else that confirms this. I will keep trying though! Sorry this is so long, but I feel if we all combine our experience it may help to find out answers. Thanks Evan!

[waterbear]

Marie,
When I was researching for the type of pool that I wanted the biggest drawback to fiberglass that I seemed to come across was that it was prone to staining and it was becuse of the negative eletrostatic charge. Metal ions have a positive charge so it makes sense. Don't know if it's true or not either but I STILL went with fiberglass and don't regret it at all!!!!!! I also keep my calcium levels at about 150 ppm. Iwonder if running the CAl higher might help prevent staining since calcium ions have a positive charge also? Might be an interesting experiment and if you get the right calcium, not an expensive one....check out this thread and what I found out about calcium (Dowflake)
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=340

[brent.roberts]

Some pool heaters have cast iron heater exchangers. Check yours. If the iron is not from the fill water then the heater becomes "a person of interest"