Autism and chlorine

[South_Texas_Sun]

Regardless of the cause of autism (and I agree that the studies do not show a statistically significant increase in autism in children taking vaccines with mercury in them vs. those who did not or any relationship vs. number of vaccines, amount of mercury exposure, etc.), anyone who is concerned with minimizing exposure to carcinogens and chemicals that can cause asthma and other ills should be aware that it is primarily the disinfection by-products (DPBs) that are the problem and, as stated in the earlier post, not the chlorine itself. Specifically, it is when chlorine combines with organic compounds (and with ammonia which can produce nitrogen trichloride if not shocked to breakpoint first) that causes the problem.

Using CYA in the pool will significantly reduce disinfecting chlorine levels and the rate of production of DPBs since that is dependent on the chlorine concentration (HOCl concentration, not FC). Also, an outdoor pool with even a small breeze will sweep away most of the volatile DPBs and sunlight *may* breakdown some of them as well. So, IMHO, the risk in an outdoor pool exposed to sunlight and wind is very, very small.

On the other hand, the risk in an indoor pool is much higher. Indoor pools don't use CYA (though perhaps they should use a little for the reasons cited above) so DPB production is much larger and ventiliation can be poor and there is no sunlight exposure. All of the studies showing problems with asthma and other ills in competitive swimmers and in children (who breath more air per body weight than adults) are with indoor pools, not outdoor pools.

Finally, if someone is still concerned, you can spend money on a non-chlorine shock of potassium monopersulfate (KMPS) which will oxidize the organics before chlorine gets a chance to and therefore reduces the amount of DPBs. If a weekly dose buys piece of mind, then it's worth it. Personally, I don't think it's needed in outdoor pools, but it won't hurt (except for the cost). It will increase sulfates in the water, but that's the only side effect.

Richard

E tu, Chem Geek?

Richard, this isn't about pool chemistry. It's about gut chemistry. In talking (over the course of the last decade) to dozens of conventional medical doctors and specialists of every stripe, I think the discussion I had with a board certified gastroenterologist summed it up the best.

He told us that most doctors consider food and supplement therapy (which are just chemical compounds taken orally) , "a waste of time" simply because they don't have the time to try it, let alone enforce it. Most patients/ health plans don't have the resources for multiple visits and the results are often so slow that the "quick fix" therapies are often tried instead. Most people can't even stick to weight loss diets.

He told us that, because every patient he sees with ASD symptoms is different in gut pathology, it's nearly impossible to standardize a treatment without parents/relatives that will methodically administer the chemicals (supplements) and keep track of the effects (if any) and scrupulously avoid contaminating the "diet" with meals from other family members, or even left over countertop remnants.

He said that mercury works it's mischief by mineral uptake disruption, and therefore presents differing symptoms in nearly every toxicity-induced illness. Everything from Austism, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, Fibromyalgia, chemical sensitivities, CAN be caused by mercurial toxicity.

He also said that, "Doctor's who aren't up on it, are usually down on it." ......An opinion I can certainly confirm.

Once the source of the EPIDEMIC of ASD related illnesses is finally widely acknowledged, there are going to be some very red faces among the traditional medical community. Just like there was when the oral polio vaccine was found to be CAUSING kids to get polio. Or when stomach ulcers turned out to be treatable by antibiotics instead of the decades of unecessary surgery, suffering, death, and near-death experience by lifelong avoidance of delicious mexican food.

I hope we can agree to disagree.

STS

[South_Texas_Sun]

I would like to thank everyone who has responded to this thread and welcome more responses. I went to close her pool today and it was totally cloudy. I couldn't even see 2 foot down. Her water is always a little cloudy, but never like this. They are going to put a new liner in next spring so they are not so worried about the condition of the water so I put the cover on it and cleaned out all of the gunky (I have never seen it this bad, and it is changed every year) sand.

I am going to talk to her about a SWG. I think if they had one of those she may be willing to convert to chlorine. I know they spend a ton of money on baquacil and even though they are "well off," that money could be going to something more useful.

I was a little concerned about opening a can of worms with this thread, but really wanted to know what others thought about it.

Thanks,
JD

You're welcome, Drumr, and I hope you can solve their problem for them.

As you can see by the microcosm opinion expressed in this thread, the odds are against them and their helpless (but not hopeless) child.

Sad, this world.

STS

[chem geek]

I hope we can agree to disagree.

I don't think we disagree. I don't believe that mercury (or its related compounds) isn't a cause of health problems and it's pretty stupid to put it into vaccines when there are other alternatives to achieve the same goals. I was just saying that the studies don't show a connection with rising rates of autism which just means that if there is a problem, it isn't "a very good chance you will get health problems if you have a vaccine with mercury". The chance may be small, but tell that to the person who gets the problems. [EDIT] Nevertheless, since autism has had a significant increase, the studies show that vaccines are not the primary cause. That does not mean they don't contribute a small amount under the radar of statistical studies, but it does mean we should look elsewhere for the primary factors since finding those will point to solutions that help the most people. Doctors who see rising rates and then find out that mercury is in vaccines may get a gut feel association, but that does not make it true. Doctors prescribe cholesterol lowering drugs as if it's a cure for heart disease when it is very clear that some people with low cholesterol get heart disease while others with high cholesterol do not. Cholesterol may affect some people with regard to heart disease, but not all, or it may be a symptom and not a cause (inflammation may be more a cause which is why Lipitor is more effective since it reduces inflammation -- but then so does asprin). Doctors do not always know what's best and many often just follow the latest drug trends. That's why the studies I consider most valid are double-blind and funded independently. [END-EDIT]

Most health problems that are related to toxins in the environment come about through cumulative exposure of multiple toxins [EDIT] at a rate faster than the body can break them down [END-EDIT]. It's a statistical game or roulette, similar to carcinogens causing cancer [EDIT] where it's the rate of mutations vs. the body's rate and success of repair [END-EDIT]. It isn't generally a "take this and you get sick", but rather, "get exposed to this and your chances increase by 0.05%" and with enough exposure over time and to multiple sources this percent adds up and with millions of people in a country many will get sick. So I agree that generally one wants to minimize exposure when possible, but it is impossible to eliminate exposure from everything that can cause harm since these same items often have a greater good so some sense of balance is required.

Anyway, we're diverting into a China Shop topic to which this thread seems most appropriate.

Richard

[KurtV]

Hi KurtV,

These are hardly "wild suppostions". Our family has seen a complete turnaround in our nephew from severe autism (constant shrill screaming, spinning in circles on the floor under a table, and unwillingness to make eye contact or even acknowledge his mom's presence) to a normal happy, healthy, and social 10 yr. old boy who's IQ score went up over 20 points over the years of treatment.
I'm not sure what your anecdote about the treatment of your nephew's autism has to do with the state of the science on a link beween thimerosal and autism. Regardless, my caution was against making "wild suppositions" about a link between autism and chlorine. Maybe I should have said basless or unfounded instead, but I think my point remains valid: There is real danger in making invalid assumptions and unsupported accusations.

You really should be more careful about posting on unfamiliar subjects on which you have no personal experience.
I'm truly sorry that your family has had to deal with these difficult medical issues. That said, you know nothing about my familiarity with the subject or my personal experience. If you percieve an inaccuracy in my post, deal with that on its merits or lack thereof. Dismissing my arguments with ad hominem pejoratives that are built on assumptions for which you have no basis, and which have no bearing on the substance of those statements, does you no credit.

You could wind up causing the opposite effect from the one you described...i.e. Discouraging hopeless parents from trying a treatment that has worked for thousands of others, irrespective of medical industry opinion.
Again, my post had nothing to do with medical treatment of anything. I don't even know what treatment you're speaking of.

STS

Regards,
kv

[drumr]

South Texas Sun:
It is very encouraging to hear the positive results that your nephew has achieved. I will pass this on to the young man's mother. It sounds like the young man I am speaking of is going through the same type of therapy that your nephew went through. I understand it is a very slow process. I don't know alot about autism other than what the mother has told me and the progress I have seen this special person make. He was born normal. It was after he started his immunization shots that he started developing autism at about 1 year old.

I am no expert in this subject by any means, and not trying to encourage a big fight over the causes autism. This is what the young man's parents believe has happened to him. Through the special diet and medicine and therapy, he has shown improvement.

If the mods feel like this belongs in the China shop, please feel free to move it.

[adesalvo]

I have been lurking on this site all summer. I have been truly amazed by the wealth of knowledge that is contained here. I especially enjoy Richard's posts. No offense to Kurt, Waterbear, Ben (among others) that also exhibit tremendous knowledge.

I find Richard to be intellectually honest and forthright with his knowledge. When he knows something, his answer is correct (always). When he is unsure, he will tell you and then he finds the answer. Amazingly, he is profoundly knowledgable even when he is outside his main area of expertise (quantatative chemistry, I assume). And, he posts it in a way that offends no one. If only I had his skills.

What I enjoy about this site is that half truths and junk science are quickly exposed as such. Clearly, we are all here because we follow science. We try to understand our pools chemistry. And we make rational decisions based on the best evidence available to us. Not because some pool kid tells us thats what the computer says to do.

As such, science tells us there is absolutely no evidence that thiomersol causes autism.

Just because you can google something, doesn't make it true. That is why I don't have magnets around my pipes thinking that they will sanitize the water. There is a HUGE difference between an association and causation.

I am not going to let mass torts (vaccines, asbestosis, silacosis) that do not have supporting science guide my actions/ideas either.

While it is truly devastating when a child is sick, sometimes the causes are not easily known. I can sympathize, because I also have a child that is developmentally delayed. We need to stop using labels and treat the child, not the label.

Somehow, I know Richard could have said it better.

[duraleigh]

South Texas Sun,

My statement:

No one has established a clear link to the causes of autism.

Your reply:

I'm not sure where all this anti-disabled child sentiment is coming from

Rather than rebutt, I think I'll let your logic stand on it's own merit.......I'm off to Wal-Mart to park in the handicap spaces......they're so convenient.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I don't think we disagree. I don't believe that mercury (or its related compounds) isn't a cause of health problems and it's pretty stupid to put it into vaccines when there are other alternatives to achieve the same goals. I was just saying that the studies don't show a connection with rising rates of autism which just means that if there is a problem, it isn't "a very good chance you will get health problems if you have a vaccine with mercury". The chance may be small, but tell that to the person who gets the problems. [EDIT] Nevertheless, since autism has had a significant increase, the studies show that vaccines are not the primary cause. That does not mean they don't contribute a small amount under the radar of statistical studies, but it does mean we should look elsewhere for the primary factors since finding those will point to solutions that help the most people. Doctors who see rising rates and then find out that mercury is in vaccines may get a gut feel association, but that does not make it true. Doctors prescribe cholesterol lowering drugs as if it's a cure for heart disease when it is very clear that some people with low cholesterol get heart disease while others with high cholesterol do not. Cholesterol may affect some people with regard to heart disease, but not all, or it may be a symptom and not a cause (inflammation may be more a cause which is why Lipitor is more effective since it reduces inflammation -- but then so does asprin). Doctors do not always know what's best and many often just follow the latest drug trends. That's why the studies I consider most valid are double-blind and funded independently. [END-EDIT]

Most health problems that are related to toxins in the environment come about through cumulative exposure of multiple toxins [EDIT] at a rate faster than the body can break them down [END-EDIT]. It's a statistical game or roulette, similar to carcinogens causing cancer [EDIT] where it's the rate of mutations vs. the body's rate and success of repair [END-EDIT]. It isn't generally a "take this and you get sick", but rather, "get exposed to this and your chances increase by 0.05%" and with enough exposure over time and to multiple sources this percent adds up and with millions of people in a country many will get sick. So I agree that generally one wants to minimize exposure when possible, but it is impossible to eliminate exposure from everything that can cause harm since these same items often have a greater good so some sense of balance is required.

Anyway, we're diverting into a China Shop topic to which this thread seems most appropriate.

Richard

Richard, I have to admit that I don't have much patience for people who ridicule the efforts of desperate (and I do mean desperate) families who have an autistic child who they are "losing" due to worsening neurological symptoms.

I posted several links in my last batch of posts on this thread and NOT ONE PERSON so much as commented on any of them!

A congressional investigation? Allegations of fraudulent peer review studies and collusion by the CDC, NIH and vaccine manufacturers? Not one comment.

This is, in a nutshell, what the parent of an autistic child goes through on a daily basis. We're far more fortunate than most, because we found and followed a method of treatment that worked for our nephew. Most don't.

In case you're totally unfamiliar with current autism statistics, most victims are young males, suffer first symptoms at birth or ~18 months later. Most are northeastern European descent (German, Norwegian, etc.) and have families with a genetic predispostion towards autism. (more than 1 family male child is likely to be affected)

It was this genetic anomoly that interested Dr. Mark Geier and brought him into the already raging battle a few years back.

Here's some video footage, just to see if anyone is genuinely interested in the topic, and not just doing the usual posturing for discussion board "appearances"

Intro:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...29446182647842

Discussion of peer reviewed studies linking autism and vaccines, CDC, NIH fraud and withholding of congressionally-mandated investigation data from researchers.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...88266603363009

There's a lot more video footage on the google sidebar if you happen to be reading this thread as a parent or relative of an autistic child and are wondering what this is all about.

STS

P.S. As you know, mercury is the second most toxic substance on earth to humans (next to plutonium) and I agree that it has no business in vaccines. However, the threshold of toxicity is much lower for the genetically predisposed subset that I mentioned above, so your discussion of metabolic balance is where the problem arises for these kids. They are not able to excrete the heavy metals.

[South_Texas_Sun]

South Texas Sun,

My statement:
Your reply:

Rather than rebutt, I think I'll let your logic stand on it's own merit.......I'm off to Wal-Mart to park in the handicap spaces......they're so convenient.

Funny Dave, that's exactly how I pictured you!.........lol

[South_Texas_Sun]

I'm not sure what your anecdote about the treatment of your nephew's autism has to do with the state of the science on a link beween thimerosal and autism. Regardless, my caution was against making "wild suppositions" about a link between autism and chlorine. Maybe I should have said basless or unfounded instead, but I think my point remains valid: There is real danger in making invalid assumptions and unsupported accusations.

I'm truly sorry that your family has had to deal with these difficult medical issues. That said, you know nothing about my familiarity with the subject or my personal experience. If you percieve an inaccuracy in my post, deal with that on its merits or lack thereof. Dismissing my arguments with ad hominem pejoratives that are built on assumptions for which you have no basis, and which have no bearing on the substance of those statements, does you no credit.

Again, my post had nothing to do with medical treatment of anything. I don't even know what treatment you're speaking of.

STS

KurtV, don't be so modest! You're still strutting around pretending to know something that you, in fact, know nothing about besides what a 10 second google search can tell you.

How about the 1800+ search hits on thimerosal on medline? Or the 1100+ hits on Pubmed? Surely there's fodder for discussion in the over 1 MILLION hits for autism mercury on Google? How about the US Congressional investigations? The list is LITERALLY endless.

You ADMIT you have no idea what I'm talking about and try to change the subject to my supposed "ad homininem perjoratives". Why don't you stop pretending to sit in judgement on a subject of which you're completely ignorant, and do some research yourself? You could start with the links I've provided.

STS