How much is the TDS increased if Borax is added to 50 ppm

[chem geek]

Adding the "Yellow Stuff" has helped remove the yellowish stains, albeit very slowly. Will add as directed every 60 days. This it seems is a long slow process.

Jack's Magic "Yellow Stuff" is 98% Sodium Bromide (see this link or look on the bottle for verification). Adding bromide to chlorine pool is a bad thing since once your pool is a bromide pool, it stays a bromide pool (unless you shock with chlorine repeatedly in sunlight). What you have been doing by adding "Yellow Stuff" is replacing chlorine in your pool with bromine just as you did earlier with "Yellow Treat".

Chlorine converts bromide to bromine, but uses up chlorine in the process:

HOCl + Br- --> HOBr + Cl-

Unfortunately, bromine is not as good an oxidizer nor disinfectant as chlorine which is part of the reason the above reaction occurs in the first place. When the bromine then disinfects or possibly oxidizes something, it does the following:

3HOBr + 2NH3 --> N2(g) + 3H+ + 3Br- + 3H2O

but then the bromide uses up chlorine as shown before.

The only plus side to having the bromine is that it will not break down in sunlight the way that chlorine would (even with CYA it breaks down, but more slowly) and it doesn't outgas as quickly which is why it is often used in hot tubs. It theoretically kills yellow/mustard algae, hence "yellow" in the product name, but chlorine shocking and borates kill algae too.

Read this post from Ben for more info (the same link Evan provided earlier). Apparently, repeated shocking of your pool with chlorine in the sunlight may remove your bromine. The "Yellow Stuff" is an algicide, NOT a stain remover, but your Borates and PolyQuat would do a much better job at preventing and killing algae. Either the stains are fading on their own or the oxidizing of bromine and chlorine are fading them (in which case simple shocking of chlorine should do the trick over time) or the Borates are fading them (killing algae). If you put a Trichlor tablet on the stain and it fades, then it was likely algae; otherwise if it's a metal stain, then you need to use one of Jack's Magic other products for stain removal, but not The Yellow Stuff.

If some algae stain doesn't come off with chlorine shock plus possibly brushing, you can try using PolyQuat. At least with PolyQuat algicide, it won't interfere quite as much with the chlorine though we have found that it does consume some of the chlorine but apprently converts to a byproduct that still inhibits or kills algae (see this post for more info).

If I were you, I would just stick with the Borates and forget adding other chemicals to your pool such as the "Yellow" stuff. If the stains continue to fade, then you just need patience. If they don't, then try PolyQuat first and then the Jack's Magic stain removal products (but NOT "The Yellow Stuff").

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chemgeek,

Thank you for the quick reply.

I think I am going a litlle "Cuckoo" as we say in the UK, I actually added Universal Chemical's Stain Treatment which I believe is 100% Oxalic Acid not Yellow Treat. This does seem to be helping along with the chlorine and borates.

If you move to Hawaii then you can do your pool chemical testing year round!

Aloha

[mbar]

This thread is great. There is a lot of great info. Next year when I open my pool I plan on running it with high borates. This way I will be able to keep the chlorine very consistant, and low, without getting algae and having to shock. Having a fiberglass pool I have found through my own experience that high chlorine along with high ph will stain the surface of the pool. This way with the borates, even while using the bleach, the ph should not drift up easily. I have also found that the easiest way to keep a stain free fiberglass pool is to add as little as possible (in the form of different chemicals) to the water. It is tough to follow how all of the different chemicals will react with each other. Therefore the less is better. You should be able to maintain a safe and stainfree pool by keeping the water balanced with Bleach, borax and baking soda. Of course you need stabalizer if you have an outdoor pool. Keeping up on the water testing will keep you from getting any algae, so you won't even need to shock. If you keep your chlorine in line with the "best guess" chart, you don't even need algacide. I would suggest a metal sequesterer if you have a fiberglass pool, or if you have a well. Keeping the ph at the low level, along with the right amount of chlorine for the amount of stabalizer will keep any metals from falling out of the water onto the surface of the pool. Many pools get stained when shocking - if the stains are caught early, bringing the ph down to 7 and adding a metal sequesterer will fade the stains. Rust is different than other stains. I have found that using a very fine sandpaper on fiberglass will remove the rust easily - using a pumace stone on plaster will do the same thing - and using a "Magic eraser" will do the same on vinyl. I am sure there are other chemicals that will remove rust, but my suggestion would be to try these first, because using these tools would not put any chemicals in the water. I love this forum, because it offers so much imput - It is great to learn from each other's experience. I have learned so much - I can't wait to add the borates next summer - Well besides that, I can't wait till the warm weather again Smallpooldad - send me a little sunshine through your thoughts, while we "enjoy" the frozen north

[waterbear]

Just want to add that the borates are still working great for me! I have had no downside to using them and a LOT of benefits!