How to add Borax

[smallpooldad]

Chem Geek,

Thank you for the reply you assume correctly. Yes I want the pool to look like a sparkling glass of Perrier just like the ad and not to fuss too much with rising pH. Once this is accomplished does anyone know if I can get a really cute model to go with my pool at Wal-Mart? And are mini-bikinis on sale? And yes the ph still rises but not as fast. Wow, do you have a good memory. Do not mind adding the same amount of acid as I prefer to do this less frequently and might be lucky if it cuts down on chlorine use; although I am aware that might not happen. The TA never seems to want to drop below 80 adjusted for CyA, any suggestions here.

A question, how much borax can I put through the skimmer, at one time and how long should I wait before adding more, assuming a 3/4 hp pump and a 300 lb sand filter, 15 feet from the pool, with 4 outlet jets?

Aloha

[chem geek]

You had tap water TA of 60 (I looked up your older posts -- my memory is not that good) so it would be hard to get below that if you are refilling your water periodically. On the other hand, your rains probably have low TA. At any rate, Ben's Lowering Your Alkalinity procedure is the only sure-fire way to get your TA lowered. By the way, when you quote TA, please don't adjust for CYA. Instead report TA (as measured by the test kit) and CYA separately. That avoids confusion.

As for where to add the Borax and how much to add how quickly, that's a question for Evan (waterbear) or others who have used Borax to answer as I have no experience with it so don't know how quickly it dissolves.

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Started this evening by adding one box of the 20 Mules, of the seven boxes I plan on adding over the next 7 days; or quicker if I can. Then added 39 oz. of acid 20 minutes later. Poured the mules box around the perimeter of the 9000 gal pool. After 30 minutes the pH held at 7.4, does this validate the instructions or seem odd?

Hope I did this correctly.

Figures before addition

pH 7.4
Alk 90 (not CyA adjusted)
Cl 6
CyA 50
Calcium 180
TDS ?

Aloha

[chem geek]

Yup. Since the pH didn't change after doing the combination of one box of Borax and then 39 ounces of acid, this validates what we calculated. That's great news! So you can confidently continue with this pairing and know that you won't be throwing your pH out of whack.

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chem Geek,

Yes the pool looks great. It is so bright and sparkling that one could go blind looking at it. I will report back as to its pH stability and Chlorine usage.

Added all the Borax, one box at a time, waited 2 hours between each addition. Had to adjust the acid down to 34 oz on the 5th box as pH dropped to 7.2, 6th box added 34 oz, 7th box 39 oz.

pH is now 7.5.

Questions after look at your spreadsheet;

Raised the chlorine to 8, do you think this is too high? Typically it drops 2 ppm in a day, maybe after the borax 1, but will have to wait for time to tell.
What is the optimum CSL level?
The pool is crystal clear but was thinking of raising the calcium to 400 based on your spreadsheet, your opinion would be appreciated. What would be the benefits of doing this.
Noticed in one post that you said there might be a benefit in raising borate to 100 but no other detail as far as I can see. Would it be wise or unwise to do so, or are the benefits minimal versus any downside?

Alk 100 -105 (no CYA adjustment) but was thinking of letting it get down to 90 to slow outgassing.
pH 7.5
Calcium 200
CyA 50
Chlorine 8
TDS ?
Temp 80
Borate 50

Thank you for all the efforts you have put into helping me and others and for the wonderful spreadsheet.

Until I report the results,

Aloha

[waterbear]

I added all my borax and acid in one shot. First I put in the correct amount of acid for one box of borax and then added a box of borax (about 1/2 box at a time) dissoved in a bucket of water. It didn't all dissolve so I just put more pool water in the bucket and stirred with my hand and repeated this until the borax in the bucket was gone. It only took a few minutes. Then I repeated for the other 1/2 box of borax. Then more acid and another box of borax 1/2 box at a time until I had added the calualted amount to bring me to 50 ppm borates. This is in line with the instructions for ProTeam Supreme, btw. Edit: Also, even though I have stopped posting in the thead I started (The Great Tetraborate Experiment) pool is doing incredibly fine...pH stable, chlorine demand WAY down, water sparkling clear!

[chem geek]

Raised the chlorine to 8, do you think this is too high? Typically it drops 2 ppm in a day, maybe after the borax 1, but will have to wait for time to tell.
What is the optimum CSL level?
The pool is crystal clear but was thinking of raising the calcium to 400 based on your spreadsheet, your opinion would be appreciated. What would be the benefits of doing this.
Noticed in one post that you said there might be a benefit in raising borate to 100 but no other detail as far as I can see. Would it be wise or unwise to do so, or are the benefits minimal versus any downside?

You could probably target 4 ppm as your absolute minimum and therefore start with 6 ppm at the start of the day, assuming it still loses 2 ppm per day. It may lose less per day after the Borate settles down and will also lose a little less if you start out with 6 instead of 8. It's really up to you if you want to be on the lower end of Ben's range or the higher end though you will use less chlorine at the lower end. If you think you might miss a daily dose, then 8 ppm is a safer starting point.

If you are worried about the -0.2 CSI index, that is not bad at all and you can just leave things as they are, but if you wanted to you could add more calcium. I think that 300 ppm is plenty for CH since it still gives you plenty of leeway to have the pH higher or lower. It's easy to add calcium, but a pain in the patooty to get rid of it (essentially by dilution). Honestly, don't worry about a CSI variation of anything less than +/- 0.5 (and yes, I know I've got a warning orange at +/-0.3 and a danger red at +/-0.6 but that's really conservative and most people don't see any problem at all until they get to +/-0.75 or even much higher).

As for the 100 ppm Borates level quoted in the Who document as being more effective against more types of algae, I would stick with the 50 ppm for now since that's what is recommended by Proteam and others. Let's see how it goes for you, waterbear (Evan) and others before we go any higher on Borates. I'm just being conservative about this -- I don't see any real downside to the higher Borates level (see the section on Human exposure to Boric Acid in the same Who document at this link).

And yes, you can let your TA drop to 90 if you want since that will also help reduce the pH rise. You can also operate at somewhat higher pH, 7.6 (or to 7.7 if you lower your TA to 80). Again, these CSI "0" targets are very conservative targets and you have a lot of leeway before you would get into a scaling or corrosive situation. It's my personal goal to target the "0" for my pool, but I don't worry about it deviating so it's really a long-term "annual" starting point goal more than anything else.

Thanks for keeping us posted on your experience.

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Waterbear and Chem Geek,

Thank you both for your replies and help.

The pool looks great. The water feels good and who needs a bath after swimming. Wished I had known or read how you did it Waterbear, before I took this amount of time to adjust it.

Raised the Calcium to 350, as a pH of 7.5 is preferable due to iron staining problems in Hawaii. Will let the Alkalinity go to 90 (unadjusted for CyA) and will go with Chlorine of 6 at nighttime after a swim, in the future.

One interesting thing is starting to happen. Had some grey/black stain streaks in the plaster, which I have tried to get rid of with both the ascorbic acid method and high chlorine (30 ppm) methods, neither of which worked. Well these stains seem to be slowly dissolving away with a combination of Algaecide 60 and Chlorine (held at 8 at nighttime), the Borax has definitely speeded this process, not sure why.

Aloha for now