Pump Restart Issue when COLD

[tenax]

on't know about the red seal, texas, but yeah, the black o-ring is what i was thinking about.

elsie, there is no reason that the big black o-ring should have to be replaced seasonally..it won't hurt, but i would rather invest in a can of silicone lube spray for 4 bucks then buy a new seal for 15 to 20 every year. you also then have it to lube as you see fit throughout the season..one spray can will last for years. the added benefit i've had with it is if you are opening up connectors with the small black o-rings during close up for the season as i need to do, i have the spray handing to silicon lube those as well. it works great.

[South_Texas_Sun]

on't know about the red seal, texas, but yeah, the black o-ring is what i was thinking about.

elsie, there is no reason that the big black o-ring should have to be replaced seasonally..it won't hurt, but i would rather invest in a can of silicone lube spray for 4 bucks then buy a new seal for 15 to 20 every year. you also then have it to lube as you see fit throughout the season..one spray can will last for years. the added benefit i've had with it is if you are opening up connectors with the small black o-rings during close up for the season as i need to do, i have the spray handing to silicon lube those as well. it works great.

Hi Tenax, yes, the red seal was a puzzlement to me too.

It seems odd that Hayward would include the useless o-ring, because most customers (me included) would struggle with the thing for the life of the pump, unless (as in my case) there was a kindly Hayward rep standing next to me, pointing out my wayward Hayward ways.

STS

[Watermom]

Hi Al,

Sorry I didn't see your reply at first. (wish there was some kind of notification about new posts on a posted topic.)

Actually, there is a way to know when new posts have been added to a thread. Click on the name of the thread to open it. Then, near the top, click on "thread tools." Within the drop down menu will be a place to subscribe to that particular thread. You can choose to receive e-mail or private message notice of any new activity for that thread. Hope this helps.

[South_Texas_Sun]

Actually, there is a way to know when new posts have been added to a thread. Click on the name of the thread to open it. Then, near the top, click on "thread tools." Within the drop down menu will be a place to subscribe to that particular thread. You can choose to receive e-mail or private message notice of any new activity for that thread. Hope this helps.

Ahh....thank you, Watermom!

STS

[tenax]

i just use the "new posts" button all the time..that way i can haunt many threads quickly

[elsie]

Just thought I'd share my observations over these past few days.

But, first, Tenex, I'm still confused. The black o-ring that is the gasket for the secondary basket at the pump location, and which I was told should be replaced each season (and lubed regularly) only cost a couple of bucks. I thought that gaskets suffer wear that the eye cannot see, and so we replace them. In that you mention "15 or 20" (meaning bucks), I'm wondering if I'm not on the same page? I admit, while I can replace a rotted fence post, paint my entire house, put down an acrylic stain on my deck concrete, technical I am surely not, so I wouldn't be surprised if I am just not comprehending.

I did some experiments, and I have concluded--at least I'm fairly certain--that my pressure gauge simply isn't working. I can turn the pump off after running properly for hours, and it doesn't drop back back down to zero, remaining stuck at 15 or 20 or 10 (virtually, wherever it "decided" to be at the moment). I can turn the pump off then on immediately, and it would sit at zero, but maybe a half hour later it would be at 15, or 20, then later, perhaps slip down to 10. Since I don't really rely on the gauge to backwash--since I know my pool and how clean I keep it and that I don't have to backwash but once or twice a season--I'm guessing I haven't paid attention to it much this summer and hence didn't notice. I do know that not removing it during the winter when we do have a dozen times or so when it dips below freezing likely did it in as it always does, and I just forgot.

Another experiment: Instead of turning my pump on in the morning when the temperature's in the low-to-mid 70's, I turned it on at noon (for 4 hours) when it's in the high 80's and in direct sun. No groaning of the pump, interestingly enough -- none whatsoever! I did this three days in a row, and it hummed immediately just like it should. Would see a couple of bubbles in the basket but then poof! and they were gone, having gotten full prime.

Then this morning, I turned the pump on at 7:00 a.m. when it was about 66 degrees out. It groaned. A half hour later, when I got back from walking the dogs, it was humming like it should.

I can't help but wonder, as Tenex suggested, if this problem is related to bearings? I'm thinking it's not a self-priming thing, STS, because it appears to get prime immediately? And me, not being technical, have no idea if the bearings are in the motor or in the casing to the motor. I know, it's pitiful. Us girls just weren't taught these kinds of things growing up.

I do know that the motor is in it's second season is all, and that the groaning started last winter when it was cold. It does strike me as intriguing that it groans for a matter of minutes when it's a mere 72 degrees outside but not when it's in the full heat of the day.

I don't have the same service I used last year to install the new motor (they went out of business), but I did call a pool service in the area, and they're $85 an hour. So it could cost me a $100-$200 to have a guy disassemble things in investigation. In that the pump is running like it should, priming like it should, and everything else seems to be going as it should, I'm thinking of not concerning myself with the groaning of my motor. Maybe something was not quite right with the new motor in the first place, bearings or otherwise, but as long as it works...?

Now, onto yet another noise. There is an audible sound, but only if you're standing right next to the multiport, of a little rattling inside the multiport. Alas, can I ignore this as well? I haven't a clue what that might be.

[tenax]

elsie, i gave the price based on how much the pool store wanted when i had to buy a new one..15 bucks..i'm sure in the u.s. you can get them much cheaper. heck, if i had gone to a hydraulic parts supplier, i probably could have got it cheaper..but, i was already in the middle of a 50 dollar an hour service call..so, in for a pound

in regards to the pump guage, for the price, replace it and if in a climate where it can get cold, take it off during non pool season. they are easy to damage in the winter..i don't take mine in the house, but i do remove it during winter. it works fine.

if the pump fills with water when it is primed quickly otherwise, i would not worry about the sound if it were me unless it clearly becomes an issue of metal on metal sounding constantly..2 years ago, my old sta-rite started making the squeal sound on startup, even when primed. (or i thought primed)

2 things i found upon investigation.

a) i did have a plumbing leak that was allowing enough air to get in that my pump was not completely full of water at "prime". it would slowly leak during my 6 hour of no pump cycles. not leak completely, but would leak about 1/2 to 2/3 of the pump basket down. that was one issue that i fixed by simply fixing the pipe leak (i had thought maybe it was a seal leak on the pump..it was not) so clarifying where you may have leaks is important..whether at the pump, in the pipe system or even at the filter valve (i.e. multiport)

b) the other is i think my pump was simply getting old and upon cold startup, something is wearing out.

i did buy a replacement pump this year as i found a GREAT price on one from a guy who sells rebuilts on ebay...and because i was changing out pretty much everything else in my system and wanted no 'weak" links in the new system..but it was still running fine in spite of noise for 2 years past the time it started and is in my basement as a backup.

while it's a little bit of work, if you are concerned, take it out of the system and to a pump rebuild place..likely save you some money on an at the house the service call and they can bench test it there?

[elsie]

I didn't realize there would be such a large price variance. $20 for a simple rubber gasket? Unbelievable.

I guess I haven't taken the pressure gauge in during the winter because I need to drive 70 miles roundtrip to the pool store to get a plug to screw into the fitting when the gauge is on hiatus in the house. But, I should definitely do that. Are pressure gauges good for more reasons than knowing when to backwash? Or is it just to tell us when the sand filter has too much pressure? It wouldn't have anything to do with the pump motor?

When you talk about the "pump," you mean the motor, yes? I've always referred to the entire contraption--filter, motor, intake, discharge ports, etc. as the pump, and then call the engine of the works the motor. My motor was replaced with a brand new one in Spring of 2005, so it's not old by any means. It would seem a shame to rebuild it. I remember when I first inherited my pool 4 years ago and I used a guy on the side for servicing issues. He told me that a motor only cost $50. I think I paid a couple hundred in Spring of '05 to have it replaced as of course pool places triple the wholesale cost and then charge labor. If a motor is only $50, why not just buy a new one?

Any idea what would cause a small rattling inside the multiport valve? Does it have bearings?

With no technical know-how, I would never dare take the multiport off OR the motor. I have images of 20,000 gallons of water spewing everywhere, flooding the property and draining my pool: what a nightmare! Just don't have enough experience.

Thanks so much for your input/help.

[tenax]

elsei, answers below yours to the best of my knowledge:

I didn't realize there would be such a large price variance. $20 for a simple rubber gasket? Unbelievable.

that's what i say when the local pool stores want the $ they want for anything...(but as has been pointed out, pools in certain parts of canada including mine are very uncommon)

I guess I haven't taken the pressure gauge in during the winter because I need to drive 70 miles roundtrip to the pool store to get a plug to screw into the fitting when the gauge is on hiatus in the house. But, I should definitely do that. Are pressure gauges good for more reasons than knowing when to backwash? Or is it just to tell us when the sand filter has too much pressure? It wouldn't have anything to do with the pump motor?

while it's pretty, you don't need a plug...i just put a small bit of rag in where my pressure gauge screws in..it shouldn't have anything to do with the motor aside from if you're pump is not building pressure, in turn your filter won't be getting the pressure, right? i think the pressure gauge serves many purposes..almost more so whether it's up..or down from a normal pressure..i.e. depending on your pump size, 10 maybe the norm..or 20! i found that my "normal" pressure with my 3/4 hp pump was 15..it's 20 with my 1hp pump..if it varies dramatically (more than a few lb) from those norms, then i'm concerned...
When you talk about the "pump," you mean the motor, yes? I've always referred to the entire contraption--filter, motor, intake, discharge ports, etc. as the pump, and then call the engine of the works the motor. My motor was replaced with a brand new one in Spring of 2005, so it's not old by any means. It would seem a shame to rebuild it. I remember when I first inherited my pool 4 years ago and I used a guy on the side for servicing issues. He told me that a motor only cost $50. I think I paid a couple hundred in Spring of '05 to have it replaced as of course pool places triple the wholesale cost and then charge labor. If a motor is only $50, why not just buy a new one?

so if i understand your correctly, you had the "motor" replaced, but not the whole pump, right? so it is possible that there is something wrong with the pump forward of the motor..impeller, etc. again, if you're really concerned about the sound or it's not functioning properly, get it benchtested or someone in..whatever you are most comfortable with. i am assuming that you have unions (connectors) that allow the pump pipe to be detached at both ends on the pump (they can be screwed off?) and do you have a valve or valves (i have 2..one coming from the water feed from the main drain and one from the skimmer feed) to turn off the water flow coming into your pump if so, it's as simple to take off as setting your filter to "close" , turning off the valves for the pipes that feed water into the pump...basically, the pump is then isolated from the water feed..you won't get water all over, you won't have a bunch of air in your pipes.. you will get a bit of water between the valves and your pump that will run out..but it's not going to be a huge amount.


Any idea what would cause a small rattling inside the multiport valve? Does it have bearings?

i've had my multiport valve off to inspect it but i've never noticed any kind of bearing..but someone else could probably answer that better than i for sure
With no technical know-how, I would never dare take the multiport off OR the motor. I have images of 20,000 gallons of water spewing everywhere, flooding the property and draining my pool: what a nightmare! Just don't have enough experience.

you can only work with what you are comfortable with..but it really is simple..if you've isolated the water supply by shutting off the water inlet valve or valves i talked about from the pump (and in turn, the multiport valve)
there will be very little water to worry about


Thanks so much for your input/help.

[elsie]

Tenex, I'm going to print this off and bring it home and do some more sleuthing tonight before dark. So if I turn the water off and put the multiport position to "close," it sounds like I will not drain the pool. Good. When I clean out the 2ndary basket I always turn the water handle off, but water still keeps on coming, so I've never really trusted that it wouldn't keep pouring water. I'll bet that even though the water IS turned off, it's still gotta empty out what's there between the valve and discharge. I sure wish I understood all the plumbing. It would be nice to know it and have the confidence to fix things. If I decide to have a service guy out, heck I'll take an extra hour for $85 and have him take the thing apart so in the future I can do it. That would probably be a very good investment. Okay, so the pump is the impeller, I get it. The motor makes the impeller go. I suppose if I could stick my hand through the piping at the bottom of the 2ndary basket I would run right into the impeller. Not that I would want to.

You see, "old dogs CAN..."