Pump Restart Issue when COLD

[elsie]

(1) I have a Hayward sand filter pump, I think maybe a 1.5 HP, but don't recall off hand. I had the motor replaced in Spring of last year. Afterwards, like always, I ran the pump 24/7 (except for a few minutes here and there when I emptied the secondary strainer basket at the pump) until last September when I covered the pool and then, like now, I ran the pump half days until October when the water cools down more. Last winter, as I will do this winter, I then just run the pump those handful of times when the outdoor temperature goes below freezing (thus, I never really close my pool, rather just cover it).

The same thing is happening now that happened all last winter. When the pump is off for a half day or longer, and I turn it on, the motor sounds like it's groaning. I do have prime, however. The jets are going as I can see the pool cover moving slightly. The secondary basket's o-ring is always replaced each year and I lubricate it often and the basket cover is very tight (no leaks). It sounds as if the impeller is struggling. I doubt it's impeded, because otherwise it would stay impeded.

After 5-15 minutes, the groaning stops and the motor hums perfectly like it should. While the motor is groaning, the pressure gauge sits at zero. During the time it's groaning, it slowly starts to climb. Ultimately--when the pump stops groaning and hums like it should--the gauge reads its usual baseline which is 20. During the summer season when I turn the pump off to clean the strainer basket then restart the pump, there is no groaning, just the perfect hum, so the groaning only happens when the pump has been turned off for a period of hours. I only backwashed twice this past 4-month season, once in the middle and once last weekend when I covered. And in both instances, my pressure didn't indicate I needed to (I use a leaf rake and vacuum up only fine particles), but it just seemed that I "should."

Any ideas? I'm trying to ascertain whether I should call a pool servicing outfit.

(2) On another note, is it necessary to run my pump/filter at all now, even though we still have outdoor temps in the high 80's? If you're wondering why I covered it so early, it's because in late August my pool only gets a few hours of sunshine because the position of the sun shifts and a huge pine tree blocks it out much of the day (if it shines) and the nights cool into the 60's and it's no longer warm enough to swim. Ironically, with the cover on, it will actually warm up now before it cools down. When I covered last weekend the water temp was 82 (by end of this week with lower outdoor temperatures it would've been several degrees cooler than that, although with cover the water temperature may actually exceed 82. Algae needs sun to grow, no? Of course I got it up to shock level which is about 15 for my pool. By the way, that CL level of 15 will drift down to only about 5 when I open in 8 months. Amazing.

I appreciate any comments!

Elsie

[tenax]

my prior sta-rite (don't know old it was but at least 5 yrs, i bet longer) made a squealing noise when cold which i took to be something with the bearings related to cold temperatures..once warmed up, always worked fine..replaced cause i got a good deal on a sta-rite max-e-pro and was replacing other equipment..i'm keeping it as a backup (the old one) cause it still works, doesn't leak and nice to have around.

i could be wrong on the bearings thing but it definitely was startup related..i'm guessing now it's kind of like a cold car and the oil being thick type idea...and maybe some bearing replacement helping this out. my new one starts right away with no squeals.

[Poconos]

Elsie,
Strange problem. If it were just bearing or seal noise I would expect the pressure would be up immediately after starting as the shaft and impeller are turning at the right speed. If a bearing is seizing enough to keep the RPMs down and not pump water, 0 pressure, then in the 5-15 minute time frame there would be enough heat generated to burn up the bearing totally. Are you sure you have a full water charge? i.e. is the pump basket totally filled when the problem is present? Are there air bubbles out the return jets? Sure sounds like you have trapped air or air leaking into the suction side somewhere and it just takes that time to blow out.
Best I can think of for now.
Al

[South_Texas_Sun]

Hi Elsie,

We have Hayward pumps too and the "groaning" from ours is just the sound of temporary self-priming. There's water in the basket, but not a full basket chamber's worth, like when it's running properly and you can look at the basket window and see stuff swirling around.

Do you, by any chance, have a sloping yard for your pool? Our backyard is slightly sloped and the equipment pad is above the pool, so we're planning on adding checkvalves to all the lines that lose pump priming when turned off.

You mentioned the o-rings around the Hayward pump gasket being lubed regularly? I asked the Hayward rep how often to lube and replace them, and (surprise!) he said not to use them at all......They're only used for pump testing from the factory.

In any case, he took them out and they've been sitting on the equipment pad ever since, with the pumps working just fine.

If you have pump questions, you might try the Hayward tech support line. I've seldom seen such good customer support in end user products.

Hth,

STS

[Poconos]

STS,
I've got to be misinterpreting something in your post. Are you saying the rep told you they remove the basket gasket and don't use it? I believe the Hayward AG pumps usually have a circular basket lid thus the comment about an O-ring. Others are square or rectangular. I can't believe there would be an adequate seal without a soft gasket of some sort. I can't believe Hayward can economically mold parts to an accuracy that would negate use of a sealing gasket/O-ring. Take a close look at your lid and see if something is there. If it's just a plastic to plastic (or some hard material) seal then I just don't understand.
Al

[tenax]

i wondered about the seal as well. (i don't have hayward. a sta-rite man) further re: gasket..i have been told by pool store guys not to bother lubricating the o ring (they say it's self lubricating) i say bs...what..it has silicone inside it? whether it needs it or not, i spray with a silicon spray a couple times a season. i think it's just their way to reduce the life and make me buy rings more often. there is no way with lubrication that it should have to be replaced every season.

[elsie]

I'm wondering about misinterpretation as well. To the best of my knowledge the secondary strainer basket at pump location must have a rubber gasket and must be lubricated frequently, and I believe should be changed out with a new one every season. Without a gasket that's in good shape and lubed, I am quite sure the basket would not have a good seal.

Poconos, I, too, think that because of the strange behavior of the pressure gauge, that whatever's happening shouldn't be happening: that gauge should pop up to baseline immediately. Odd thing is that when I look in the strainer basket, I see no bubbles and, in fact, cannot even be sure there's water -- maybe there isn't. What I will do tonight is turn pump on, and I'm sure the motor will groan, and then turn off and immediately use my board to wrench the lid to the basket off and see if there's water. That will at least clear that question up one way or the other.

Because the cover's on now, I can't be sure I have full prime, although there again I could take a few water bags off and stick my upper body under it and put my hand in front of one of the jets. I'm very familiar with the strength of water coming from the jets so that may (or may not) clear up another question.

I think "at the end of the day," I will have to have a pool service come out. I'll keep you apprised, and appreciate everyone's input.

[Poconos]

Elsie,
Easy way to tell if there's water in the pump chamber is to turn the pump on for a second then shut it off. If it's empty the pump/motor will spin down slowly over several seconds. If there is a full water charge or a good partial charge it will stop almost immediately.
Al

[South_Texas_Sun]

STS,
I've got to be misinterpreting something in your post. Are you saying the rep told you they remove the basket gasket and don't use it? I believe the Hayward AG pumps usually have a circular basket lid thus the comment about an O-ring. Others are square or rectangular. I can't believe there would be an adequate seal without a soft gasket of some sort. I can't believe Hayward can economically mold parts to an accuracy that would negate use of a sealing gasket/O-ring. Take a close look at your lid and see if something is there. If it's just a plastic to plastic (or some hard material) seal then I just don't understand.
Al

Hi Al,

Sorry I didn't see your reply at first. (wish there was some kind of notification about new posts on a posted topic.)

No, you didn't misread that. The o-ring on my Hayward Northstar pumps stay out upon installation.

I'm talking about the large REDDISH o-ring that's a pain to put on. He (the Hayward rep) told me that it's not necessary for the enduser, and I believe him, because there's a fixed black gasket on the pump window deck that forms an excellent seal while the pump is running. (Just TRY to take off the windowed cover while the pump is running if you don't believe it....lol)

We may be comparing apples to oranges though, because the only experience I have is with the Hayward northstar pumps.

hth,

STS

[Poconos]

STS,
Thanks for clearing that up. Don't know what that reddish thing is.
Al