Electrical Shock

[JohnT]

Sure hope it isn't a sign of problems to come!
Good luck!

It is a sign of problems. Your pool deck isn't bonded, and if it were to come in contact with a higher voltage source, you could be electrocuted when you touch the deck. Your pool company screwed up. Your electric company fixed a symptom, not the root problem.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I'm an EE by training and home/pool wiring is not rocket science. I joke with my brother in law about being a "4 wire technician" because that's pretty much what he does as an electrician.

But you absolutely.....no way around it.......need a good earth ground! That means 1-3 8' copper stakes in the ground and tied securely to your pool ground lugs and equipment lugs.

I wouldn't let anyone GO NEAR the pool, let alone SWIM in it, when you feel ANY ELECTRICAL SHOCK WHATSOEVER!

Sorry about the "yelling" but this can be much more serious than you realize until someone dies as a result. Then the blame game begins.

Pool "code" is weak or non-existant in some states, so don't depend on your contractor to know proper building codes. I caught our electrical contractor trying to install 12 guage wire for 100ft of 100 amp 230VAC supply line to the equipment pad subpanel!

There's more misinformation on the internet than good information, unless you err on the side of caution and check your sources. Do a google search on fatal ground loops......if that doesn't scare you, nothing will.

Don't do electrical work "on the cheap". Especially on a salt water swimming pool!......lol

I'll shut up now.

STS

[tenax]

and that's why i'm hiring an electrician..i've done the new wiring for a basement myself and it worked out well..but i'm not playing with water, electricity and breakers!

[JohnT]

But you absolutely.....no way around it.......need a good earth ground! That means 1-3 8' copper stakes in the ground and tied securely to your pool ground lugs and equipment lugs.

I'm an EE as well, and you absolutely do not need an earth ground on a pool system. 2005 NEC had a footnote added to clarify this. The addition of a ground rod can cause stray voltage issues under certain circumstances.

The lugs on the pool and equipment aren't called ground lugs, they are called bonding lugs, and they are used to create an "equipotential plane" which prevents anyone in the pool from coming into contact with any two things that are at significantly different voltages. Ground doesn't enter the equation until the bonding wire is connected to the bonding lug on the pump motor housing, which is grounded via the service lead to the house's service panel ground. Look at NEC 2005 680.26.

[South_Texas_Sun]

I'm an EE as well, and you absolutely do not need an earth ground on a pool system. 2005 NEC had a footnote added to clarify this. The addition of a ground rod can cause stray voltage issues under certain circumstances.

The lugs on the pool and equipment aren't called ground lugs, they are called bonding lugs, and they are used to create an "equipotential plane" which prevents anyone in the pool from coming into contact with any two things that are at significantly different voltages. Ground doesn't enter the equation until the bonding wire is connected to the bonding lug on the pump motor housing, which is grounded via the service lead to the house's service panel ground. Look at NEC 2005 680.26.

No offense, but this is what I mean by bad internet information. The NEC revision IS AN EARTH GROUND, but in grid form for pools that have conductive construction elements that can be separate from a central earth ground, but connected to improperly grounded equipment.

This won't exactly work for someone who's already built the pool! ....lol

Bottom line: Use proper EARTH grounding or get a group funeral plan.

Here's the section:

1. Revise 680.26 (C) & 680.26 (C)(1) as follows:

C) Equipotential Bonding Grid. The parts specified in 680.26(B) shall be connected to an equipotential bonding grid with a
solid copper conductor, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified
corrosion-resistant metal conduit. Connection shall be made by exothermic welding or by listed pressure connectors or clamps
that are labeled as being suitable for the purpose and are of stainless steel, brass, copper, or copper alloy. The equipotential
bonding grid shall conform to the contours of the pool and shall extend within or under paved walking surfaces for 1 m (3 ft)
horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and shall be permitted to be any of the following:
Exception: The equipotential bonding grid shall not be required to be installed under the bottom of or vertically along the walls of
vinyl lined polymer wall, fiberglass composite, or other pools constructed of nonconductive materials. Any metal parts of the
pool, including metal structural supports, shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B). For the purposes of this section, poured
concrete, pneumatically applied (sprayed) concrete, and concrete block, with painted or plastered coatings, shall be considered
conductive material.
(1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. The structural reinforcing steel of a concrete pool or deck where the reinforcing rods are bonded
together by the usual steel tie wires or the equivalent. Where deck reinforcing steel is not an integral part of the pool, the deck
reinforcing steel shall be bonded to other parts of the bonding grid using a minimum 8 AWG solid copper conductor. Connection
shall be per 680.26(D).

[Poconos]

Say What? Since when are concrete, paint, and the others considered conductive? Too many variables to make that statement in my opinion but being just a dumb EE I would like to hear some details and an explanation.
Al

Quote from post above.

"For the purposes of this section, poured concrete, pneumatically applied (sprayed) concrete, and concrete block, with painted or plastered coatings, shall be considered conductive material."

[JohnT]

Say What? Since when are concrete, paint, and the others considered conductive? Too many variables to make that statement in my opinion but being just a dumb EE I would like to hear some details and an explanation.
Al

It is because of "water intrusion", e.g. wet concrete is conductive. The rest of the statement just refers to the method of concrete application.

[mas985]

Sorry to butt in on this one, but having a masters degree in EE myself, last time I checked it did not qualify me to be an electrician. Having said that, it does help to understand electrical theory and with a bit of experience you can do most of what an electrician does. I just don't see the relevance on pointing out you are an EE. In fact, I think I learned more about house wiring and grounding in my shop class in high school.

Also, forgive my arrogance STS but how does one become an EE through just training and not a degree? Technician yes, engineer, I am not so sure.

Now back to the topic. Hsdancer, you mentioned that when you reach out from the pool and step on the pavers you get the shock. Does that mean you are also holding on to a railing? If so, it could mean the railing is not bonded as well. Was it added later?

Regardless of what the code says or does not say, it probably would not hurt anything to try an extra grounding rod near the pad. If it does solve your problem, then the problem is probably with the grounding in the house or power company.

Also, turning off the power in your house does not change the grounding or neutral only shuts off the hot leads so you may not detect it doing this.

[DONNIE]

Don't mean to jump in the middle of your conversation but it sounds like you guys can answer a simple question. I am planning on adding a wood deck, outward from the concrete around my pool. Do I need to ground the deck in any way? Posts will be poured in concrete. Deck may or may not attach to the concrete around the pool.

Donnie

[South_Texas_Sun]

Sorry to butt in on this one, but having a masters degree in EE myself, last time I checked it did not qualify me to be an electrician. Having said that, it does help to understand electrical theory and with a bit of experience you can do most of what an electrician does. I just don't see the relevance on pointing out you are an EE. In fact, I think I learned more about house wiring and grounding in my shop class in high school.

Also, forgive my arrogance STS but how does one become an EE through just training and not a degree? Technician yes, engineer, I am not so sure.

Now back to the topic. Hsdancer, you mentioned that when you reach out from the pool and step on the pavers you get the shock. Does that mean you are also holding on to a railing? If so, it could mean the railing is not bonded as well. Was it added later?

Regardless of what the code says or does not say, it probably would not hurt anything to try an extra grounding rod near the pad. If it does solve your problem, then the problem is probably with the grounding in the house or power company.

Also, turning off the power in your house does not change the grounding or neutral only shuts off the hot leads so you may not detect it doing this.

Devry Institute of Technology BSEE