Electrical Shock

[JohnT]

How do I get the electrical issue fixed?
What steps do I have an electrician/engineer follow to find the problem with our pool? No rebar or wire was put in our concrete decking before or during the pouring of the concrete. The ground wires are in the couping as far as I know.
How do you get a non-responsive pool company to fix the problem?
HELP, Please!
I do live in a rural area. The pool is vinyl 20x40. Mineral Springs system. Sand filter.

Gayle, you are in a difficult situation. The power company may be able to help with the stray voltage, if the will. Being in a rural area may help in that regard, as they may have some familiarity with stray voltage. As to getting an electrician, good luck. Virtually none of them know anything about pool wiring.

You have two distinct issues that probably aren't related. First, you have a stray voltage issue with your property. Second, your pool installation wasn't properly bonded. If you didn't have both, you wouldn't be aware of either.
Fixing the stray voltage problem won't make your pool any safer, just less annoying. Normally, the low level voltage isn't a safety threat, although if you don't know the source, you can't be sure. The real safety issue is the bonding problem. As easily as it allows the stray voltage to be felt, it could allow you to be electrocuted if something like a backhoe or TV tower or grain auger were to touch a power line and the ground at the same time while someone was in the pool.
The only solution is to connect the deck and the metal of the pool together electrically. There is just no easy way once the concrete is in. If it were my pool, I would consider boring into the concrete from the outside edge to where you can hammer in pieces of rebar horizontally every few feet, and connect the ends with #8 wire and connect that to the bonding wire. I don't think that would meet code, but it might fix it. You'd probably have to dig holes so you could get the drill in place.

Good luck.

[hsdancer]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have not gotten a chance to do any troubleshooting in the past several days, but I thought that I would provide a little more information about the pool and its surroundings:


-We live in southern Maryland on 6.5 acres at the end of the road.
-All of the power lines are underground and we are the last house one the line. Basically, we are the last house on a ridge line and the electircal transformer is 300 ft away from the house, on the opposite side of the pool. On the other side of the ridge is a horse farm.
-Our closest neighbor is more than 800 ft away and our house lies between the pool and our neighbor's house.
-There are no power poles or electical lines through our property, or anywhere within sight.
-We have a well between the house and the pool.
-We have no ladder or handrail in the pool, so there is no metal connection between the pool water and the bonding wire that runs around the pool. The coping does not come in contact with the pool water either. Basically, the pool water is insulated by the liner.
-All piping is 3" PVC; we have 3 aqua-genie's and no drain.
-The bonding wire lies in sand/dirt/compacted gravel as it travels around the pool and into the pool house where it connects to the pump lug; the bonding wire is about 180' in length and connects to the aluminum coping every 18"-24".
-The pool is a liner pool with polymer walls. The bottom is vermiculite/ cement (upon which the liner rests).
-The coping is "C" coping and the pool has a 6" wide and 6" deep concrete (w/fiberglass) collar around the top with no rebar.
-The pavers are level with this concrete, and sit on a bed of sand and 6" of compacted CR6.
-The pool is L shaped 44'x20' & 36'x16'.
-The pool has a Salt water generator (220vac) which is connected in parallel with the Hayward pump (2hp), wired for 220vac, i.e., both are on the same ckt breaker and swithed on together. There is no timer.
-My understanding is that the only way the copper bonding loop ever connects electrically to the pool water is through the pool pump.

I will try to attach a picture of the set up (no luck).

Again thanks for all the help. I will be performing a few more measurements this weekend to see if I can isolate the problem. I thought that the 180' of bonding wire would also serve as a ground, but since it lies mostly in sand, that may not be the case. I like the idea of a second bonding loop and an additional copper ground....

[Poconos]

Back to the original poster HSDANCER, Cliff. Read most of this long thread again and either I missed it or you didn't say if you live in a rural area or someplace with close neighbors. Like LA where neighbors can be feet away. If you're very rural it should be pretty easy to isolate the problem because power poles are more widely spaced and once you come off the transformer it's only your house involved. If you have close neighbors it could be a problem on one of their properties. Of course then you have the added complexity of transformer sharing, neighborhood phone lines, cable TV, water and sewer pipes etc. Wish there was an easy button.
Al

[JohnT]

-We have a well between the house and the pool.

-We have no ladder or handrail in the pool, so there is no metal connection between the pool water and the bonding wire that runs around the pool. The coping does not come in contact with the pool water either. Basically, the pool water is insulated by the liner.

-The pool has a Salt water generator (220vac) which is connected in parallel with the Hayward pump (2hp), wired for 220vac, i.e., both are on the same ckt breaker and swithed on together. There is no timer.

-My understanding is that the only way the copper bonding loop ever connects electrically to the pool water is through the pool pump.

I extracted a few things that might be worth thinking about:

Wells can contribute to stray voltage issues if they have any wiring issues. Sometimes they are wired by people who aren't electricians.

Your pool is somewhat unique in that your water is truly insulated from everything by the polymer walls and lack of a ladder.

Is your SWCG connected to the bonding system? This is a system designed to electrically contact pool water, so it could be a source.

The water should never come into contact with the electrical system ground via the pump unless there is a seal failure in the pump.


When you pull the bond wire from the pump case, barring a leaking pump, you are only disconnecting the pool bonding from your electrical system ground. It would appear that in your case, your bond wire is actually energizing your paver decking. That's not too surprising since you are somewhat remote. Your utility's service is probably poorly wired allowing significant difference between the ground and neutral.

Based on what you've said, I have to assume you don't have a light in the pool either, as this would tend to bond the water as well. If you do have a light, I'd bet it isn't bonded.

[hsdancer]

I forgot. I do have a niche light (wet) and it is connected to the same bonding loop around the pool, so the pool water is electrically connected to the bond wire.

[mas985]

From everything you have posted, it sounds as though the bonding wire has a potential difference from true ground and your pavers are not bonded. From your first post, I assume your know how to use a volt meter so do you think you know how measure the voltage between your house neutral and ground? This can be dangerous if you do not know what you are doing so please be very careful. But this can confirm the power companies contention that ground and neutral are fine. There should not be more than 0.5 vac between ground and neutral in the house. I just measured my and it is less than 40 millivolts. [TYPO]

Again, if you do not feel comfortable doing this test, then please don't. But if you do then you can do this measurement at the house breaker box or at an outlet. Newer outlets use the larger of the two long slots for neutral and the center round prong is ground. Rember that the short slot is hot.

If your ground and neutral are ok, then the power company was correct and something must be wrong with the pool ground. You can then repeat the test at the pool breaker box and see if those ground and neutrals are ok.

If those are ok then the soil around the pool must be at different potential then the bonding wire meaning the problem could be in the well as John suggested or another underground wire.

[South_Texas_Sun]

(deep breath) At the risk of starting the brouhaha all over again....(and I SWORE I wasn't going to get back into this, dang it) Cliff said that when he lifted the ground wire from the pump motor, the shock went away, right?

Why not TRY a ground wire to an 8 foot copper stake (pounded into the ground) that's connected to the same lug on the pump motor? Or am I missing something? The worst case scenario is that he'd have a better ground and a starting point to measure voltage if it doesn't solve the problem.

Also, you probably can't feel a shock (and this from someone who's been shocked more times and ways than a porn star's grandma) from a 4.5 vac, 40ma "leak". It's probably much higher than this, but can't be displayed on the meter because it's too cheap, or the "ballistics" too slow (digital), or the sample rate too slow, or it's autoranging and doesn't "see" the peaks, or all of these.....SO BE CAREFUL

On a lighter note, I think I found what my pool's electrical contractor does in his spare time:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

STS

[mas985]

STS,

I agree that will probably solve getting shocked at the pool but he should really find out the cause of the problem to make sure it is not a symptom of something more serious.

[huskyrider]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770


What an IDIOT!!!

See ya,
Kelly

[haze_1956]

Cliff,

Did you finally find a solution to the electrical issue?

I hate not knowing how a story ends !!
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