My Pool Looks Like An EASTER EGG!!! -- NOT a good thing!

[PopcornGirl]

Ok, at risk of being totally lambasted for depending on my pool store... Here is my story:
***WAIT -- before I begin -- I just want to say that I am ready to learn how to take care of my pool myself and NOT depend on my pool store, but I REALLY NEED HELP because I am not confident at all when it comes to matters of science/chemistry (my degree is in History -- def. NOT a scientist!).***

Ok, here goes...
We have an inground, gunite pool with exposed aggregate in a pretty blue-green color (GORGEOUS when it's clean and sparkling!). It is approx. 35 feet long and 9.5 feet wide with a 15' x 15' wide square, jut-out on the shallow end. (In other words, a long, narrow, rectangle with a box sticking out on one side.) We have a CARTRIDGE filter (slightly oversized, I'm told).
>>Pool store estimated that my pool capacity was about 12,000 gallons???
I have just METICULOUSLY tested my water and these are my readings RIGHT NOW (5:00 pm CDT on 16 April 2006):
Water temp: 80 degrees F
FC: 0.............. Yes, ZERO; it appears that we have created a riduculous chlorine demand with the black algaetrine (OR SOMETHING!) that we used prior to attacking the stain...
TC: 0
CC: 0 (obviously)
pH: 8.0
Acid Demand: 4 drops (or ~1.5 quarts muriatic acid)
TA: 120
CH: 360!
CYA: 65

Some of you may recall that I opened my pool with what appears to be an iron/rust stain all along the bottom of the pool. Not sure where this came from as we've never had trouble with this before and this will be our 5th year with this pool (and it's 5 years old). I live in the deep South (Baton Rouge, LA) and it's already hot as blazes here. I would LOVE to be swimming right NOW, but obviously, I need to get all this under control first...

First 3 summers, we used a copper ionization system (WAY too much work and I could never keep my copper or pH balanced!). Almost 2 years ago, we switched to chlorine and had almost NO trouble at all last summer (except for some stubborn black algae).
You can read more about my stain & see pics of my pool/stain in the metal/stains column/forum on this board (orange-brown stains thread).

Went to pool store for help because I am not very confident yet in maintaining a chlorinated pool esp. with the introduction of these new problems... First thing they told me was that it was copper in my pool.
They had me pour in one bottle of metal out, wait 2 days, rinse my cartridge filter, pour in a second bottle, wait 2 days and rinse again.
**NO change to the stain.**
THEN, they tested my water and saw that my chlorine was almost zero, so they decided to try the Stain Eliminator (ascorbic acid). This took up about 1/2 the stain, but it took about 3 days to do it!
Unfortunately, while the stain eliminator was taking its sweet time, my pH shot up and my water started turning cloudy!
So back to the store...
They sold me a bottle of off-brand Baquacil SHOCK (peroxide??) and told me to pour in the whole bottle and it would *shock* my pool AND finish removing the stain.
Um, I don't think so. It cleared up my water (no longer cloudy), but that's about all. Now my pool is starting to resemble a lagoon from all the algae growth... I'm paralyzed with inaction because I don't know what to do next!
I don't really think the pool store knows what they are doing but I'm afraid to just *wing it* for fear of REALLY messing up my pool...
And they have already gotten about $150 from me this month; I really can't afford to spend any more on this mess this month!
WHAT CAN/SHOULD I DO???

***One final note that I think is FAR more relevant than the pool store wants to admit: When I brush the bottom of the pool with a metal brush, the brown "stain" sends up a "cloud" of brown dust. Wouldn't that indicate that it is NOT a stain, but something organic??? In the beginning, I could NOT brush up the stain, so I'm wondering if I have had TWO problems going on at the same time -- one metal-related and one organic?

I would sincerely appreciate ANY HELP I can get at this point and as quickly as possible!!!
And I want to switch to BLEACH (I've been using hth chlorine super shock and pucks in a floater up till now).
Many thanks in advance for ANY help/direction you can give... I apologize for the lengthy rant!

[PopcornGirl]

I have 2 bottles of METAL OUT and some OMNI Filter Aid. Can I go ahead and use those -- even with all the algae in my pool and my pH being so high??? What do you think?
I was thinking I might soak my filters overnight and spray them down really good tomorrow, then add the Metal Out & filter aid, then reclean the filters...
But there is SO much algae (live & die-off) in my pool right now, I'm kind of immobilized by fear of doing something out-of-step.
Just looking for SOME kind of direction here...
TIA,
Summer

[duraleigh]

Hi, Summer,

You'll need to read a lot more. Poolsolutions.com and http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/ehs/chem.htm#ta will fill in the blanks for you on what you need to know. ( You've gotten a little confused on the Cl thing, I'll bet you've got CC in that pool)

How deep is the pool? Does the 35' length include the 15'x15' box? Be very detailed so you can get the correct volume...we'll all help if you get us the info. 12,000 gallons seems too small.

1. Get the muriatic acid in there (we'll tell you how much after we figure you're gallonage) and get your pH down to about 7.2-7.6

2. You must identify the stain. It sure sounds like iron and the ascorbic acid seems to have had an effect. Perhaps Marie or Ben will see this post and have some info for you. I cannot tell you how to positively identify the stain, nor can I tell you the best way to treat it...again, I think it's iron.

3. You're gonna' have to shock the pool but I'm not sure you can or want to do that 'til you get the metal under control. My reccomendation is a PM to "mbar" (that's Marie). She fights metal in her pool almost every year and seems to know more about it than almost anyone on the forum.

4. If it weren't for the apparent metal in your water, this would be an easy fix. But, you've got it and you're gonna' need some pretty expert help to get it under control. (I can answer one question, "metal out" removes NO metal, it only suspends it in solution...in other words, it's still in there...you just can't see it)

5. The pool store folks seem to be floundering. Their advice doesn't make much sense. "Trying" this and that will only exacerbate your problem. I would not put one more chemical in the water until you felt confident you were getting knowledgeable help.

This post will probably frustrate you because I sense you are hoping for a quick fix. With that staining issue, I don't think one exists. You're gonna' have to take it a step at a time.

Dave S.

[PopcornGirl]

Dave,
Thank you so much for responding!
I agree; there is SO much more I need to learn! And I don't want to rely on my pool store any more. They are nice & mean well, but I feel so vulnerable and at their mercy... I do NOT like that!
Ok, first things first:
2) Oops; forgot that. It is 3 ft. in the shallow end and it gradually (about halfway) goes down to 6 ft. YES, the 35 feet includes the 15' x 15' box.
Actually, I just RE-measured my pool and it's exact measurements are 37 feet long, 9.5 feet wide and the jut-out measures 5.5 x 14 (or 15 x 14 as the total width x jut-out length).
I'm going to try to upload a diagram of its dimensions in a moment...
http://www.herstorygirl.com/mypool2.html

Actually, your post does not frustrate me, but rather, confirms my suspicions that my pool store is just guessing, too.
I will post more info as needed, but for now, I'm going to check out that link...
Thanks again!

[duraleigh]

Hi, Summer,

based on the dimensions above, that DOES come out to about 12,000 gallons. Let's use that for now...we can tell later if it's incorrect.

I'm going to offer a path you can take if you choose. It will address your algae problem but may cause your staining to worsen. I've reread some info on metal and Marie seems to think that the staining can be overcome at any point so, if it were my pool, I;d give this a try. That said, keep in mind that you're still gonna struggle with what we think is iron in your water....even after you get your pool clear.

1. Don't put anything else in the water unless we talk about it here...it'll cause you further issues perhaps and certainly cost you money you don't need to spend. Don't even use the products you've bought...that'll come later. Then, download mwsmith2's calculator from any of his posts and use it for all your calcs.....plan on 12,000 gal for your pool size.

2. Put in one quart of muriatic acid (into the jets, pump running) as soon as you can get it. Test your pH and post it back. Hopefully, it'll be about 7.2-7.4.

3. Get about 15 gallons or so of 6% Clorox and have it on hand. Your gonna use most of it right away. be ready to get some more very quickly.

4. You need to test for CYA and tell us what it is. If you can't test for it with your kit, please get one that does.

5. I'm gonna' assume you can get all above done by tomorrow evening (the CYA test is optional at this point, but don't put it off too long)

6. Tomorrow evening, after the sun is very low in the sky, put in 4 gallons of the 6% bleach. That should raise your Cl to 20pp, (but it's gonna start dropping right away) Find a way to test for CYA and post that info as soon as you can. You'll need to get some in there the next evening.

7. The next evening, test your water again for Cl and pH. Adjust your pH with either muriatic acid (down) or Borax (up) using the calculator. Now add enough Clorox (into the skimmer, pump running) to bring your Cl back up to 20ppm.

8. Hopefully, you'll have gotten the CYA test done, and purchased enough (if you even need it) to bring your CYA up to about 40.

Let's stop there for now. More steps at this point would be information overload. If you can do the above, asking any questions along the way, everyone here will help you get your water sparkling.!

Dave S.

[waterbear]

My question is when you put in the Black Algaetrine? According to the MSDS on it it contains copper carbonate (I believe it's 3% copper) and some organic ammonia compound (MONOETHANOLAMINE, TRIETHANOLAMINE) which form choramines(that's combined chlorine!) when put into your pool,and DIMETHYL BENZYL AMMONIUM CHLORIDE which is a quat (NOT polyquat!) . The choramines are eaten by the algae and decolorize them. The quat and the copper both are algaecides. This can create a very big chlorine demand. Have you tested your water for copper and iron? The black in your pool might not have been algae at all but a copper stain. In a highly oxidized state copper will create black stains! This is a complex situation but it can be fixed. IMHO, the first step is to see if there are metals in your water and to test the stain to see if it is a metal stain. There are stain tests kits available or you can determine what the stain is with the help of some of the more experienced people on here! First thing is to determine if it is really a stain and what kind or an algae problem . The treatments are different depending on what the results are.
Don't loss faith. You will be swimming soon!

[mbar]

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

[waterbear]

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

Chlorine puck in the skimmer is NOt a good idea with a cartridge filter. The very low pH of trichlor can actually ruin the cartridge (happened to me when my pool was being built. Before they got the SWG working they were puting trichlor pucks in the skimmer and it started to dissolve the rubber (or plastic) ends on the cartridge and put goo from it all inside the filter and into my pool! My builder actually fired one of his guys who did this and ended up having to replace my entire filter which was only about 2 months old at the time)

[PopcornGirl]

Wow, I appreciate you guys so much! Thanks for all your help...

Ok, sorry about the typo last night (too tired after an exhausting day); yes, my CYA is 65.
***Aside: The Black Algaetrine was added about 3 weeks ago, two days after the initial vacuum & shock...
I'm *pretty sure* that it is black algae (black freckles and streaks in localized areas).
By the way, the black algae (or whatever it is) is STILL THERE. So, maybe you're right; maybe it's not...***

I will definitely do what you say... add muriatic acid (wait 3 hours), then add the bleach, but I'll wait until around 3 or 4 this afternoon when the sun is no longer on that side of my house so that I don't end up converting all of my chlorine!
I am confused now about whether or not to put the puck in the skimmer... it is definitely a tri-chlor puck and I certainly don't want what Waterbear suggests to happen! Interestingly, Waterbear, it was my pool store owner who first suggested putting a puck in my skimmer -- had me do that last week. Thank goodness, that's the ONLY ONE I've put in there so far!

Also, I have TWO bottles of Metal Out; should I just add the one?
And according to the REGAL manufacturer's instructions:

It is advisable to add this product at least one day prior to adding algaecide or chlorine.

So should I add the Metal Out NOW and do the acid/bleach TOMORROW???
Or if I do the Metal Out now, 9:15 am CDT on Monday, can I still do the acid/bleach tonight (say, around 7pm & 10pm, respectively?). Would that be enough of a window between the two?
I realize that y'all are having to do a lot of "hand-holding" with me, and I apologize, but I'm a fast learner and I want to learn, so don't give up on me!
Thanks again,

[PopcornGirl]

Oh, one more thing: Does the pH need to come down BEFORE I add the Metal Out or can I do that NOW -- green pool and all???