My Pool Looks Like An EASTER EGG!!! -- NOT a good thing!

[mbar]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about cartridge filters, I have a sand filter so I can't say about the puck in the skimmer, but I would listen to Waterbear on that. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface. So a couple of hours is enough. With a cya of 65, your chlorine should hold fine in the sun - you don't want your cya any higher. You can add chlorine after a few hours. I would keep your chlorine high at all times now to get rid of any algae - whenever you check your chlorine make sure to take it back to shock levels. Your chlorine will start to hold when the algae, or even metals in solution are gone. Metals that are in solution use up chlorine too, that's why it is important to keep your chlorine levels up for now. MAKE SUR YOU KEEP YOUR FILTER RUNNING 24/7. I still think that you have algae since the stain was able to be rubbed off. If it is a mineral stain, no amount of rubbing will get it off, but ascorbic acid (vitamin c) will take it right off when you put it right on the stain (even if your ph is high). Keep us informed, we all learn from each other, that is what is so great about this forum. I just saw the post about the ph - you can add the metal out, and the muriatic acid too. Make sure you add acid, wait a while then test again for ph - it takes a little while to get a true reading, and you don't want to go too low.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Summer,

You're on your way!! I'll bow out for now so you can get clear, simple advice from Marie (with nothing extraneous to just confuse you)....she's the metals guru!! (guruess?

Keep your Cl up to 20ppm every chance you get....I'll read your posts but Marie's the expert!!

Your willingness to learn shines thru in all your posts....you're gonna' love the bleach thing once you get your water clear.

Dave S.

[waterbear]

. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface.

Chemisty 101 here--sorry
Metal removers react with the metals and keep them in solution. The filter does NOT filter them out. Sometimes, if you are lucky, you can get the metal to precipitate out and stain your filter medium instead of your pool but there is no sure fire way of doing this. The seqestering agents just keep the metal in solution and in a form that it will not likely "fall out" of solution and form stains nor react with strong oxidizers (chlorine) and produce colored water. There is no easy way to remove the metal from the water short of draining and refilling with pure water. You CAN remove the stain by dissolving it back into the water and then help deactivate it's reactivity with the chlorine by sequestering it.
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) oxalic acid, HCl (muriatic acid) all act as reducing agents on the metal stains which are usually in a higher oxidation state and convert them to a lower oxidation state which is water soluable. A seqestering agent will then react with the metal ion and help keep it from going back to that more oxidized state as quickly but the metal is STILL in the water.

Popcorngirl,
The fact that you had a copper ionizer and then coverted to chlorine and had some localized black spotting and streaks makes me very suspect that those might have been copper stains. The pool store told you the problem was copper, did they test for it?
Even if you did a complete water change there still might have been enough copper in the system to redisolve and then restain with a high oxidizer level of shocking.
You also seemed to have a secondary iron stain problem although it could also have been tannin stains from leaves. Once again testing would determine which.
The third problem is the algae (I assume it was green water....once again copper in the water can cause it to turn green...only testing for copper will tell you which it is)
You then added more copper with the Black Algaetrine along with a bunch of ammonia compounds (and some quats) which would eat up all your free chlorine and make an incredable chlorine demand in your pool. They would also decolor any algae in your pool as the algae ate the chloramines (nitrogen compounds are favorite algae food!)

At this point I sort of lost track of what is going on and am confused.
I am sure that if you did not have algae before you might now but I doubt it since you dosed the pool with copper and quats. You then put in metal out which effectively deactivated the copper as an algacide and I have NO IDEA what the hydrogen peroxide might have done but I assume it would have a similar action as monopersulfate and possibly oxidize some of the metal that the metal out had bound up and caused it to either color the water or stain again.

I have to admit that at this point I am lost but definately do NOT put a puck in your skimmer with a cartridge filter!

One final thing, you stated that when you brushed the brown stain with a metal brush it sent out clouds of brown stuff in the water. Could be mustard algae (more tan than brown) could be rust (iron oxide) that is coming loose because of the stain treatments and all the other stuff you put in the water or that didn't really stain but just precipitated out of the water, could be something else. If you can brush it and vacumn it to your filter and then clean the filter I would do that and get as much out of the water that you can, whatever it is!

One more final final thing,
You said that you are using HTH super shock (which is cal hypo). I noticed you wondered or were suprised as to why you CH was 360ppm, this could be a reason) and pucks. Are the pucks HTH and are they by any chance the 'dual action' ones? If they are they contain --guess what--COPPER!

[mbar]

Thank you Waterbear for your chemistry lesson!!! I was under the impression that you could filter out the metals once they were binded on the sequestering agent - That's what I was told, and why I had to keep the pump running. But maybe it was so that it would stain the filter instead of the pool? I have successfully kept the stains away after using the treatmet without draining the water from the pool. I am still trying to figure out where metals get in my pool, and why sometimes I get staining and other times I don't., and it seems that I am not alone in this! I can get the stains off, but can't figure out how to prevent them yet. Is the solution to always keep enough sequestering agent in the pool, and keep the filter running 24/7? What do you think???

[PopcornGirl]

Thanks, Dave!
And thanks to you, too, Marie!
I really appreciate your help AND your patience.

Whew! Waterbear, I'm in awe.
Ok, Chemistry 101 -- I definitely need to sit down and reread this AFTER I put my kiddos to bed!
I will try to address/answer your questions/concerns, Waterbear...

First though, let me tell you what I've done today so far...
1)Added 1 quart of METAL OUT to the water.
2)Added ~1.5 quarts of MURIATIC ACID.
3)Waited 3 hours, retested the pH. It is now 7.4
4)Added 4 gallons of liquid bleach.
My pool is now very cloudy which I'm sure is algae die-off.

--->>>QUESTION: Can I, or rather SHOULD I, add SuperBlue (water clarifier) tomorrow or is that now a No-No? I only ask because that is what I have been told to do for the past 4 years and I now suspect that I probably shouldn't.

As for the copper:
1) I converted from copper to chlorine 1.5 years ago (early fall of 2004).
2)Before converting, I personally tested the copper level and it was at ZERO; the pool store also tested and it was ZERO. We removed the copper bars and added METAL OUT before adding chlorine (just to be SURE). I had NO staining after switching to chlorine, and in fact, we swam without ANY staining issues last summer.
3)The black algae preceeded the switch to chlorine, so I really DO NOT think it is copper staining. Also, it was diagnosed by several different people who are familiar with black algae. And it ACTED like black algae: For example, I had to scrub it with a metal brush before it would respond to the algaecide.
4) Finally, I suspect it is black algae because, as they say, once you have it, you never truly get rid of it. And I will be the first to admit that I completely neglected my pool for a couple of months over the winter, so I was not surprised to see it back! Furthermore, at the start of LAST summer, I had a little bit of black algae and I used black algaetrine & scrubbed it like crazy and shocked at high chlorine levels and it went away; it didn't get worse.
This is why I'm convinced that it is not copper staining.

As for the pool store testing for copper, I have been told (by various people, both here on this board and elsewhere) that the copper builds up in the pool and is re-released over time. Also, the pool store's test was about a week after I had added the black algaetrine, so couldn't that have contributed to the positive copper reading? In any event, I have now (in the past 3 weeks) added 3 QUARTS (total) of METAL OUT.

At this point I sort of lost track of what is going on and am confused.

Me, too!

I have to admit that at this point I am lost but definately do NOT put a puck in your skimmer with a cartridge filter!

Don't worry; you've made a believer out of me!!! I will NEVER do that again!

Could be mustard algae (more tan than brown)

I have wondered about that...
Did you see the pics of the stain (it no longer looks like this)? Click here:
MY POOL 3 WEEKS AGO

ou said that you are using HTH super shock (which is cal hypo). I noticed you wondered or were suprised as to why you CH was 360ppm, this could be a reason) and pucks

I thought CH was calcium hardness (that's what I was referring to); how does the super shock affect that? I was surprised because the pool store had told me that it was 270 just 2 days before. What is the chemical relationship between the two? And what SHOULD my CH level be?
And finally,

Are the pucks HTH and are they by any chance the 'dual action' ones? If they are they contain --guess what--COPPER!

They're not. They are hth 3" stabilized chlorine (they don't say dual action and they don't mention copper -- just say they won't cause "over-stabilization").
WHEW!
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the green is green algae; my pool water is SO warm already (it was 90 degrees here today) and the green stuff felt a tad slimy and it brushed off the walls VERY easily.
Ok, I think that's about it. Whaddaya think???
I'm open to any and all suggestions.
I'm so excited to FINALLY be on the right track!

[waterbear]

I thought CH was calcium hardness (that's what I was referring to); how does the super shock affect that? I was surprised because the pool store had told me that it was 270 just 2 days before. What is the chemical relationship between the two? And what SHOULD my CH level be?
The shock you are using is calcium hypoclorite...operative word is calcium....it will cause your calcium levels to go up. However 360 ppm is certainly in range for a plaster pool. You might want to start shocking with sodium hypochlorie, however...usually called 'bleach'
And finally,
They're not. They are hth 3" stabilized chlorine (they don't say dual action and they don't mention copper -- just say they won't cause "over-stabilization").
As far as I know all the currently manufactured HTH 3" triclor pucks now contain copper. If they are older ones they might not. As far as not causing overstabilization...that is just marketing hype!
WHEW!
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the green is green algae; my pool water is SO warm already (it was 90 degrees here today) and the green stuff felt a tad slimy and it brushed off the walls VERY easily.
Ok, I think that's about it. Whaddaya think???
I'm open to any and all suggestions.
I'm so excited to FINALLY be on the right track!

With all the seqestering agent in your water metal should not be a problem for a while but be aware that they might still be lurking in your water to return when you least expect it.
I need to go over your numbers and think about them but it seems you are on the right track . Keep up the FC levels at schock level until the green is gone. vacumn the dead stuff up, and keep cleaning your filter and you will beat it.

As far as the brown stains they did look like iron but they also could have been tannin stains. Iron is pretty easy to lift off if the pH of the water is low enough.

Good luck!

[PopcornGirl]

Waterbear,
Ah, that makes sense! Thank you for explaining that; I had no idea the two were related. And I bet you're right about the tabs (pucks), too.

Ok, I retested everything this morning... no real surprises:
FC = ZERO
TC = < 0.5
pH = 7.4
TA = 100
CYA = 50 ??? Is it normal to drop that much in 2 days??? It was 65 on Sunday!
CH = 370

Ok, so I added 5 more gallons of bleach early this morning (right after testing). It's kind of overcast here this morning so hopefully it will have some time to work before the sun hits it... I was afraid to let it sit all day in the heat without adding at least SOME chlorine!
Going to the store to buy MORE BLEACH today!!

Side Note: It *appears* as though the stains are GONE so maybe *something* worked (or all of it). I realize they could come back as I continue to bring my chlorine up, but I just wanted to note that now...
I'll check in again later,

[waterbear]

sounds like you are on the right track..just get your FC up and keep it there. You might want to retest the cya...it's not the easiest test, it can be a bit subjective as to when that black dot dissappears! I try to do mine in the shade, hold the container at about waist level, and if the water is cold I let it come to room temp (indoor) because lower temp will slow down the reaction and could possibly casue a lower reading.

[PopcornGirl]

Oh, dear.
Only 5 hours after adding 5 gallons of 6% bleach (and yes, I checked to make sure it was still bleach -- not old/water), my FC is still ZERO and my TC is still <.5 !
And I STILL have a LOT of green algae on my walls and floors...
QUESTION:
Would it be ok to add a quart of polyquat 60% to the pool to help with the algae problem? I'm afraid I am combatting two MAJOR chlorine-demand problems here (the algae & all the other stuff [stains, metal out, high CYA]) and it's going to cost me a fortune if I continue using only bleach...

I won't do ANYTHING unless y'all ok it, but I have spent so much on chemicals this month, it's REALLY putting a strain on my budget!!
HELP!

[waterbear]

IMHO, you need to keep putting chlorine in there. What type of test kit are you using for FC and TC? Is it DPD (comparator cell with pink colors) or FAS-DPD (titration test)? The reason I ask is that DPD can bleach out with high chlorine levels. I don't think this is what is happening. I think you just have a big chlorine demand and the only thing that will take care of it is to satisfy your pool's "hunger" for chlorine right now but it is one possiblity that sprung to mind to explain your FC of 0. Bleach is NOT your only alternative. You might want to check around at the prices of liquid chlorine and cal hypo vs. bleach. Sometimes they can be a bit more economical (but usually not). Your CH is at the high normal end for a plaster pool but your TA is on the low side so I don't believe that cal hypo will be a problem. I personally would stay away from stablized chlorine with your CYA levels being as high as they are.

As far as polyquat, have never used it but my understanding is that it is more of a preventative than a treatment from what I have read on here.

Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you WILL be swimming soon!