i'm a patriotic canadian but..THIEVES!

[PoolDoc]

I would encourage you all to be careful with your words.

After years of not thinking well of salesmen, I find myself up to the eyeballs in retail sales, via the testkits, myself. It's unfortunately quite true that many sales people lie. They often even deceive themselves with their own lies, using phrases like "just business" and the like. After a very difficult summer and many problems with the kits, I see how salesmen are tempted to deceive your customers as I never have before.

But, even if they are often liars, not so many sales people and retailers are actually thieves.

That they charge more than you would like to pay is not truly theft, unless you are somehow compelled to purchase from those selling. It's not even "gouging", unless they are selling what necessities, or near-necessities, under conditions where they are your only practical source of supply.

Selling good products for low prices and still remaining profitable as a business is difficult, and requires that the business, and its owners and managers acquire and apply many different skills. Walmart has done unbelieveably well at this, but what they've done is very, very hard.

Many of the swimming pool discount retailers are actually side operations of other, successful, pool businesses. And, in more than a few cases, they are quite literally sucking the financial life out of that parent business. Many sites have ceased operation over the past few years, after the injury became more than the parent company could bear. In some cases, bankruptcies have resulted, with the internet offspring killing the parent. In more than a few cases, your savings on Internet-purchased pool items come almost directly from the bank account of the parent company.

It's worthy of notice that the long time catalog retailers, like Leslies, have successful Internet sales divisions that are NOT based on heavy discounting.

With respect to sales in Canada of US made products, I can tell you myself that it's not that easy. I've tried several times, and had to give up each time. Customs charges and regulations are complicated and hard to figure out, as is cross-border shipping. With respect to overall paperwork and regulation, Canada seems to be worse than either California or New York, which are certainly among the most highly regulated US states. Even where the required paperwork is not worse than what is required in the US, it's still different. This means starting from scratch with things like MSDS sheets.

There are numerous Canadian distributors or importers with 'exclusive' rights to a particular product line, and they are very jealous of those rights. In many cases, they pioneered distribution of a particular product line in Canada at a time when all sales requires shoe-leather representation and brick and mortar retail locations. The Internet has changed all that, but you can be sure that these reps, who have learned the hard way about the 'ins and outs' of Canadidan regulations, will be looking over the shoulder of anyone who attempts to ship a few items across the border. They are more than happy to point out any failures to get the paperwork right. As you might guess, penalties for getting it wrong can be severe.

For high volume sellers like Walmart, the costs of figuring all out can be spread over millions and millions of items. But no such opportunity exists for most pool product retailers. Canada is a small swimming pool market, smaller than many individual US states., but spread over a huge geographical area.

For all these reasons, margins on pool products sold in Canada have to be higher than the same products sold in the US.

How much higher? I don't know.

Personally, I found I couldn't charge enough to make it worthwhile. Even if I doubled the price, for Canadian sales, of the PS234 kits it would be a money losing proposition for me. So, I just turn away non-US sales.

Barriers between countries exist, by design. The problem is even worse, when selling to other countries, like Mexico or Australia. There's no real solution that I know of -- I'd posted a facetious one, tongue in cheek, not realizing that it would be offensive.

Please understand: I am NOT saying that it's wrong or disloyal to shop for the best price.

I'm just asking that you think a bit, before applying the word, "thief" to Canadian retailers. I'm sure a few are. Probably even more are guilty of "larceny in their hearts". But I hope I've offered some evidence that simply charging more than US retailers do, is not evidence of theft!

Sincerely,

Ben
"PoolDoc"

[GHM]

(Apparently offensive suggestion deleted by PoolDoc)
"PoolDoc"

Is that the best solution you can come up with?...
This comment shall surely piss off a lot of Canadians. Especially Quebecers.

[PoolDoc]

Is that the best solution you can come up with?...

Sorry, didn't realize it would be offensive. My point was, that as long as the US and Canada are separate countries, and as long as Canada is a relatively small market, low volume US-made goods, such as pool products, will tend to be significantly more expensive there, then here.

It is possible to ship to Canada and ignore all that stuff, either ignorantly or because you hope you won't get caught. I know, because I did it some, before I understood some of the issues. But the whole problem of different regulations and different certifications creates an almost insurmountable problem with respect to chemicals and electrical devices.

Ben

[tenax]

i did use the word "thief" in jest..if i had mentioned a pool stores name, i would not have used the word, just so you know! in regards to shipping to canada, unless it's a prohibited item (i.e. chemicals that you don't want to "mislabel" to avoid custom issues for example) it's actually not difficult at all. i've done over 180 transactions back and forth across the border via ebay or with fellow members of a computer site i hang around on.and no,i'm not a dealer..i just refuse to pay local retail on expensive items ranging from computer parts to guitars and amps to pool stuff when there is a huge price disparity. i've occasionally had items shipped by fedex..will not have them shipped by ups for many reasons. it's cost prohibitive in some cases to get fedex because brokerage fees increase along with the value of the item...but, i do my homework...nice thing about couriers is the great tracking systems they have. usps air is generally how i have things sent to me and i've only had 1 package go missing in those 180+ transactions..and i question whether it went missing or just an unscrupulous private citizen who got cold feet when i asked a lot of questions usps air has tracking, is inexpensive and best of all, no brokerage fees given that canada post and usps have an arrangement where they handle brokerage for items going into each country for each other. at most i pay 6% canadian government sales tax with usps..and sometimes, and i don't know why, they don't even bother charging me that..i'm not going to complain

[PoolDoc]

in regards to shipping to canada, unless it's a prohibited item (i.e. chemicals that you don't want to "mislabel" to avoid custom issues for example) it's actually not difficult at all.


usps air has tracking, is inexpensive and best of all, no brokerage fees given that canada post and usps have an arrangement where they handle brokerage for items going into each country for each other.

Actually, it IS quite difficult, if you want to stay legal.

You can ship illegally, and not get caught. This was very fortunate for me, since I did it for awhile before I dug into the regulations. And even now, I'm not clear on who's liable: me or the recipient. What is clear is that the liablity if you DO get caught is quite large!

Regarding USPS, it's not legal, under current USPS regs, to ship many testkits by air even WITHIN the USA, much less to Canada. Some can be shipped within the USA, but only with extensive, expensive, and very time consuming paperwork. A prior approval process by the local Postmaster or each and every item is also required. Many PoolForum users discovered this this spring when my refill shipments to them were restamped "Surface Transportation Only", subsequent to regulations revised in April 2006. Neither I nor the local Postmaster knew about them, but we both learned the hard way! Fortunately for me, no fines were involved in this case.

Violating shipping regs is sort of like repeatedly running under Damocles sword. The odds that you'll get skewered, on any given pass, are small. But the consquences of being there at the moment the sword does fall are huge!

This season, I've had several people persuade friends to purchase my kits in the USA, and then reship them to Canada. That's their choice, their risk, and their responsibility. But, I can't do it.

Ben

[tenax]

gotcha ben..i wasn't trying to make a case for you shipping chem kits to canada, so you know the liability by the way for a mislabeled shipment, item marked as a gift when it is not, lost shipment, item marked at a clearly unreasonable value is the shippers, even if they have proof it was requested to be sent inappropriately by the receiver. the shipper has to make any inquiries and claims to usps.the receiver can try, but unless you get a real mr. friendly at usps, you will get the "usps manual" line and correctly so i think, that the shipper has to make the contact with usps. in most cases unless there is a really flagrant abuse, customs will simply seize the item and end of story. but i believe fines and imprisonment are possibilities. years ago when i started buying, selling and trading computer parts, i didn't know any better and people marked items as gifts all the time. these days, not worth it. the fees just aren't high enough from canada post to take the risk and if it's a low value item, the fees are going to be dirt cheap or nonexistent for duties (under 60 canadian value, zero duties)

[matt4x4]

I have to disagree, items under 60 from the usa shipped by a legitimate seller not as a "gift" are still subject to duties on them, recently i bought 45 dollars worth of goods, it cost me an extra 12 dollars in duties before it was released to me. I don't like buying anything from the USA because of the shipping issues, sometimes you get lucky and don't get nailed, other times it made the whole attempt at saving some money pointless AND on top of it you have to wait for the item to arrive - sometimes upwards of 3 weeks because of customs.