Nature 2?

[waterbear]

I beleive the exact wording was something like "metallic silver from silver nitrate" I will double check when I go back to work on monday! Not really mislabeling becuase silver ions in the water ARE metallic silver! Doesn't matter if they come from silver nitrate or electrolysis in an ionizer. Once they are in the water they exist as silve ions. Same for copper!

Edit: Actually I just foung a PDF document here
http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenew...F35%5FAM%2Epdf
that has an image of the box....Here is a cut and paste from it! (Emphasis mine)

ACTIVE INGREDIENTS:
Metallic Silver**............................3.51%
Copper sulfate pentahydrate***....8.23%
INERT INGREDIENTS ..................88.26%
TOTAL........................................100.0 0%
**From Silver Nitrate
***Copper (Cu) as Metallic....................2.09%
EPA Reg. No. 67712-1
EPA Est. No. 67712-FL-001
KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN
CAUTION
See back panel for additional precautionary statements.
*The Nature2 System consists of the patented
Nature2 technology used in conjunction with
a chlorine delivery device or 0.5 ppm of an
EPA registered chlorine pool product.
† Nature2 technology consists of the
minerals silver and copper.
Nature2 water is
brilliantly clear and soft.
The
Mineral
Pool Sanitizer
The Low Chlorine Alternative*
Reduces chlorine use
to just 0.5 ppm*

[bryjen]

Our pool opened at the end of last july,so we never put our n2 cart in. Being a BBB convert I never will. From an earlier post the n2 container is empty water passes right thru I see no need to remove it.

[medvampire]

When I bought my pool this spring I got “pool stored” in to getting a N2 system and after looking through the paper work knew I got nailed. We have used colloidal silver as a disinfectant for instrumentation in a histology lab. I soon realized that the levels of silver in the N2 system were way to low to kill E.Coli and pseudomonas. We have also used silver in special “live” tissue preps at around the same levels I feel the N2 is delivering. I am not going to trust my family’s health to 0.5 ppm Cl and the N2.
I am not sure if the N2 works by metal delivery or by filtration. The “kill zone” may be in the filter itself and not dependant of metal delivery.
This fall when I pull my N2 cartage out I do intend to do some test by preparing several suspensions of different bacteria, prepping some homemade filters using the N2 contents, pass the suspensions thought the filters, and do colony counts. I wish I could get N2 to send me some of their filter material to test that has not been used and I am not going to waste $100 on a filter to rip apart.
As for EDTA it is a chelating agent against Ca. We use it in hematology to prevent coagulation of whole blood by chelating Ca and replacing it with K+. Ca is a metal.
As for the copper I am not sure about its levels as an algaecide but for it to combine with dihydrogenmonoxide (sorry couldn’t help myself) it would have to create an ionic bond and could possibly would lead copper toxicity. The level of ionized copper should be below 1 ppm in the body with most being bound to protein.
You have to be careful when dealing with these “healthy” mineral claims. It is a case of “When a little is good a lot must be better” mentality that gets peps in trouble. I have seen one case of copper toxicity at work and caused hemolytic anemia, liver degration, and renal problems.
The real question is if these things work? I really think that the best course of action is to listen to people running the board here and follow their advice. The chemistry is sound and their advice is wise.
Thanks again
Steve

[waterbear]

N2 is not a filter, it is an erosion feeder. Their Express unit is attached by clamping onto an existing PVC pipe in your plumbing system so the water can circulate through the cart. and return to the pool. It just doen't put enough of anything into the pool. For copper itselt be be effecive as an algecidie it needs to be at concentrations close to 1 ppm in the water. I regularly test pools with N2 units and they show 0-.2 ppm copper. Not sure how much addtional protection is added by the silver since we don't test for that nor do I know what level it becomes effective. I just know that the kill times are very slow.

As far as EDTA, I finally got an answer back from this particular company from someome who actually knew some chemisty and was told that the reaction EDTA was pH dependant and that at normal pool pH it has a greater chelation ratio for copper and would chelate 16 ppm copper and only 1 ppm calcium so the impact on calcium levels would be minimal. This makes sense since the EDTA titration test for calcium hardness is carried out at a pH of 12 and the test for total hardness at a pH of 10.

[medvampire]

If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat. The required level is around 30 ppm and is most effective with H2O2. We have used in years past around 25 ppm (if my math is correct we used a %soultion) to stain Cryptosporidium with a kill time of around 120 minutes. Cryptosporidium is harder to kill but after looking around at 30 ppm in drinking systems at around 40 ppm in combo with 50 ppm H2O2 the kill time was around 900 minutes. With WB getting a 0.2 ppm of copper the erosion of silver would be around the same judging by the ionic states of each.
I can see where I will NOT be wasteing my hard earned $$$$ on a new N2 cart for next year. I will invest in one of Ben's kits.
The advice from the mods here is very good and wise. I wish I had found the site before getting "pool stored".
Thanks again for setting me straight waterbear. Had a great time this week end with the kiddies and 10 of their friends, water got a little fuzzy, and threw the bleach to it this morning and WOW it looks great this evening. Let the kids go in at a cl of 5 and didnt freak thinks to this forum.
EDIT
WB The EDTA we use as an anticoag has K2 or K3 added to counteract the copper by ionic excange in a buffered form to a PH of 7.10 to 7.25. Red cell lysis and defromation starts at around 7.0. The normal body ph is 7.35 to 7.45 with outside of 7.1 to 7.6 being incompatable with life. I have seen very few live with a ph below 7.0 or above 7.8 and if they do we have created a veggie.
Steve

[sasha]

If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat.

I think that's beside the point. The product is to be used with at least 0.5 ppm free chlorine, and that's clearly stated on the label.

IMO, not mentioning the explicit requirement for having a concurrent free chlorine level of at least 0.5 ppm is misrepresenting the product.

[medvampire]

I guess I jumped into a hornets nest on this N2 subject. One last post and I bind and gag my fingers.
First of all let me say I am not worried about the copper due to the fact if you have an algae bloom I feel you have bigger problems with bacteria or viruses in your pool. Algae is a good sign you have problems.

Warning geek speak to follow.

Cl is a great sanitizer at levels given in Ben’s best guess chart but at levels of 0.5 it is quickly used up. It attacks by oxidizing the lipid molecules of the cell membrane as well as the membrane of bacteria, algae, parasites while denaturing the proteins in the coats of viruses.
Silver is a great sanitizer in conjunction with UV light and works buy preventing the unzipping of DNA. This prevents the replication of bacteria and viruses. In high concretions it also hinders the production of proteins but would be toxic to us at that level.
Now let’s put the two chem. together
Ag electrical state +1.93
Cl electrical state -3.16
Ag + Cl -à AgCl
In theory have just created a white insoluble granular material that is way to large to enter a cell to mess with the DNA and killed the oxidizing propties Cl but in a pool environment Ag in solution will be found in its bound and unbound state.
Ag + Cal ßà AgCl
Now mix the rest of the pool chem. Ca Na Mg Fe just to mention a few.
Ca electrical state 1
Fe electrical state -1.83
Na electrical state -0.93
Mg electrical state -1.31
You get the ideal. Ag is a very reactive with other elements causing a greater decrease of free silver in the system.
Now lets gander to silver kill times if we have enough free silver left in the system. Kill times are directionally proportionalto concretion of free silver and judging by the level of silver left in the system you are looking at well over ½ hour kill times. E.Cloi reproduces every 20 minutes so resistant strains become a good possibility. Resistant strains for silver that have been cultured include
Acinetobacter baumannii, E. coli, Enterobacter cloacae, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Pseudomonas stutzeri, Citrobacter freundii, and Salmonella typhimurium
Trust me you do not want to get any of these bacteria much less a resistant one.

End of geek speak.

I am out of this one and might get my hand slapped by the mods for this but the N2 is not only expensive but potently dangerous due to bacteria resistance and will be pulling my cartridge and use just the puck feeder on the vessel when on vacation.
I deal with enough resistant bacteria and have seen the effects of MRSA here at work in the staff as well as the patents.
Later
Steve