Low calcium levels, plasticizers in vinyl liners, leaching cobalt from fibergalss?

[waterbear]

I was speaking with someone at the local Ace Hardware pool department today who was very inpressed with my knowledge of pool chemsitry and equipement. (In fact he turned out to be the regional pool dept. coordinator and offered me a job! Might take him up on it since I work in education and am basically unemployed every summer!) I have to give credit to this forum for a good part of my knowledge.
Anyway, we were discussing water balance and he said that some research has been done by a company called WaterTeq Water Technolgies Inc. which showed that low calcium levels in vinyl pools could cause a leaching of the plasticizer out of the liner and shorten its life and that in fiberglass pools it leaches the cobalt out of the fiberglass. He gave me a printed handout of several pages and other than these statement it is all sound pool chemistry, no bs or double talk, and very straigtforward. I could find no listings for this company on the net to research this. I did ask what this company did and he said that they manufactured pool chemicals. I saw no chemicals of this brand at the store.
Does anyone on here know anything about this or know where I can look to research this further? I am now on a quest for the truth! It is plausable that this can happen given the reactivity of sodium and potassium ions (monovalant) in solution vs. calcium and magnesium ions (divalent).
anyone?

[CarlD]

Post your references. Sounds like the latest come-on to get A/G pool owners to buy calcium. I think it's probably garbage...You'd have to compare long-term pool usage of pools that have low calcium and those with high calcium. It would have to be over years and years, and a controlled study.

A study might be: recruit 500 homeowners around the country. Install new vinyl liners for all of them, then have half run with low calcium levels (what would that be? Below 100ppm?) and check their water weekly to ensure they were on-track. Have the other half run high levels--say 400ppm. Check 100 liners after 5 years (50 of each), 100 liners after 7 years, 10 years, 12 years, and 15 years.

With a protocol like that I would be less skeptical than I am now.

(this is how many clinical drug trial protocols are set up--that's how I know).

[waterbear]

Like I said it was just several photocopied pages on waterchemistry with their logo at the top. Could not find them on the net and any references to plasticizers leaching out of vinyl liners that I found usually blamed acidic water conditions.
I did find one reference on the net about fiiberglass in general on how soft water could have an effect on the glass (same as it can etch glassware that is washed in a dishwasher) but could not find anything specifically about cobalt other than it can leach out of the gelcoat but no conditions were specified. It is just that this is the first time that I have ever heard this and I was wondering if anyone else has ever came across it or is it just another load of bovine refuse.

[CarlD]

WB:
No attack at you intended but at the folks pushing this...They never seem to have any substantial evidence to support it.

[DavidD]

waterbear,

I'm an avid boater, all have been fiberglass, never added/checked calcium levels in the lake, and current boat is 17 years old and still solid . Therefore, I would tend to lean towards "load of bovine refuse". But that's just me. I've been "pool stored" (as Carl would say) one too many times. I would however believe the etching part but only under high pressure, like in a dishwasher so as far as "our" fiberglass pools, I think we're OK.

[waterbear]

Thangs guys! I was tending to that direction myself but this is the first "pool store guy" that I have come across that really seemd to have a handle on the chemistry and was not just spouting Maufacturer's rhetoric. He even acknowled that laundry bleach is just as effective as liquid chlorine and he stated that borax was better than soda ash for pH control since it won't raise carbonate alkalinity! The handout that he gave me had someithing similar to Ben's "best guess chart" for CYA and FC. That is why I questioned what he said on here concering calcium in the first place! Almost everything he said was good info.
I've spent about 9 hours researching on the 'net' and have found nothing to back it up. If anyone ever comes across anything about this one way or the other I would be interested in hearing about it.

[PoolDoc]

Anyway, we were discussing water balance and he said that some research has been done by a company called WaterTeq Water Technolgies Inc. which showed that low calcium levels in vinyl pools could cause a leaching of the plasticizer out of the liner and shorten its life and that in fiberglass pools it leaches the cobalt out of the fiberglass. He gave me a printed handout of several pages and other than these statement it is all sound pool chemistry, no bs or double talk, and very straigtforward. I could find no listings for this company on the net to research this?

I've heard things like this, but when I've had the opportunity to ask engineers with one of the two big manufacturers of vinyl sheet, they were very skeptical and doubtful.

But . . . I'd be very grateful if you'd mail, scan and email, or fax me copies of this info. I'd love to read it carefully. If you can, PM me and let me know how you can send it, and I'll give you the info you need.

Thanks!

Ben

[DavidD]

Waterbear,

Like you, I have a fiberglass pool and the manufacturer (local company that has been around 40+years) recommends hardness between 200 & 400. They also recommend FC between .5 and no greater than 2! If you read on, you'll see that they (both yours and mine) say things like "Do not use chlorine on indoor pools. The gases from chlorine in water are carcinogenic” or “Bromine is less caustic and aggressive than chlorine resulting in reduced eye and skin irritation. Bromine will not fade bathing suits or yellow blonde hair. Bromine’s gentle action will prolong the gel-coat pool finish and equipment. The primary advantage of chlorine is lower product cost” which leads me to believe they feel Bromine is the way to go and chlorine must yellow hair and irritate the eyes! The pamphlet my pool manufacturer furnished me with is almost identical to the one on San Juan’s website, typed and all! This leads me to believe that these companies get their recommendations from “generalized” published swimming pool data which we all know leaves a lot to be desired. There may or may not be truth in the hardness information, I’m not qualified enough to say. I am thinking that I will invest in some cal-hypo this year and get my CH up. After all, it won't hurt anything right? It does not however, change my skepticism of their recommendations since I know that much of the other info is misleading. I’m extremely interested to hear Ben’s take on Water Tech’s information.

Dave

[ldsmommyof12]

So, with all the above posts, please tell me the basic, final idea on calcium raising in a vinyl ag pool. I just tested and my calcium needs 5.5 pounds. Should I just disregard this since I have a vinyl ag pool? Thanks,

[CarlD]

So, with all the above posts, please tell me the basic, final idea on calcium raising in a vinyl ag pool. I just tested and my calcium needs 5.5 pounds. Should I just disregard this since I have a vinyl ag pool? Thanks,

Yes. Waste of money, potential problems.

MWSmith2 is addressing a theoretical problem that MAY be true. It may turn out that corrosion can be reduced with a little calcium--or another metal. He's talking about the electrolysis principles...Boat owners have for years had "Zincs" on their boats for the water to "eat" rather than their bronze propellers.

But Michael is tossing out a hypothesis for discussion. It may be turn out to be true, may not.

Now as to your "needing 5.5 pounds": what is your current Calcium level and why has that much been recommended to you, other than to generate a fund transfer from you to your pool store?

If your calcium is higher than 0, say, around 100ppm (low for concrete, fine vinyl) even Michael's theoretical concern shouldn't apply.

So post that number and we should be able to relieve your mind--and save you from getting "Pool Stored!"