DE in a sand filter???

[gwrace1]

Have you TRIED the DE-in-the-Sand method? I have no experience with Zeolite but I gather it's primarily an ammonia remover (I could be wrong).

Or maybe it puts ammonia IN your water--something that I think is VERY bad to mix with chlorine. Remember: I know little about Zeolite.

Surely there is NO way that Zeolite is cheaper than sand and DE--is there?

Backwashing every 2 weeks (about my average) is not what I consider an arduous task. If I ever run a hard pipe into the storm sewer it will be even easier--I won't even have to roll out and roll up the B/W hose--just flip a lever and watch the sight glass....

Still, do you have DIRECT experience that Zeolite works better than DE in Sand? Or are you just guessing because Zeolite has done well for you?

My water is sparkling clear too--even at night with the lights on--and it wasn't before I started using Poconos's DE trick. It was clear, but not sparkling.

I recommend it because it has worked so well for us. We had no water available to us other than from a very hard water iron rich well. We wanted the maximum filtration we could get from the filter with the least amount of maintanance. We got that with the sand filter and Zeolite.

We knew the pool was going to get it's share of air borne debris from the various trees in the area. We also wanted to put as little effort as possible into pool maint. We got that from the SWG, Poolskim, Pool Rover, sand filter with Zeolite. I've had to backwash the filter one time since the pool was installed in early March.

I don't know that you can justify the cost over DE in sand. However here are some things to consider.
1. You only use have as much Zeolite as you would sand.
2. You backwash much less frequently which conserves water and chemicals and is easier on the enviornment.
3. Zeolite is a natural bio-degradable medium so can be disposed of safely which includes using it in your garden.
4. The reduced labor and maint. hours should add up to some value.
5. Zeolite is renewable. When the filtration qualities diminish you recharge the medium with a salt solution. It is "supposed" to outlast sand many times over. Our neighbor has a never ending sand pile as he replaces it every year (softswim user).
6. I don't think a cost of $40.00 for a 50lb bag is all that expensive comparied to the per ounce per pound cost of other pool chemical products. We needed 175 lbs for a total cost of $160.00 with some left over.

Just some things to consider.

[waterbear]

I recommend it because it has worked so well for us. We had no water available to us other than from a very hard water iron rich well.
Zeolite can remove heavy metals (including calcium and iron) from the water in much the same way it removes ammonia (and in fact is sometimes used in water softener units as the ion exhange resin) but it is not nearly as effective as other water softening resins and if the concentrations are high it will require regeneration once it's capacity has been reached ...see below about regeneration of zeolite. Also water softeners are regenerated with the brine solution ususally at least a few times a week so this ability will quickly diminish!
We wanted the maximum filtration we could get from the filter with the least amount of maintanance. We got that with the sand filter and Zeolite.

We knew the pool was going to get it's share of air borne debris from the various trees in the area. We also wanted to put as little effort as possible into pool maint. We got that from the SWG, Poolskim, Pool Rover, sand filter with Zeolite. I've had to backwash the filter one time since the pool was installed in early March.

I don't know that you can justify the cost over DE in sand. However here are some things to consider.
1. You only use have as much Zeolite as you would sand.
That is by weight, not by volume. It weighs about half as much as sand. The price per pound is much higher than sand. A 50 lb bag of sand sells for about $6 so 6 bags would be 300 lbs and costs $36. A 150 lb bag of Zeobrite (equivalent to 300lbs of sand) sells for about $75 dollars...more than double the price for the same amount needed!
2. You backwash much less frequently which conserves water and chemicals and is easier on the enviornment.
This is probably true since the rough surface of zeolite can trap more dirt than the smooth surface of sand. One plus for zeolite. However the grains are actually up to 3X larger than sand grains (up to 1.5 mm while sand is about .5 mm) and that will reduce the mechanical filtering ability so you might only be breaking even here.
3. Zeolite is a natural bio-degradable medium so can be disposed of safely which includes using it in your garden.
Last time I checked DE was also a natural medium. Zeolite does not biodegrade. It is a mined mineral and is a hydrated (containing water) alumino-silicate oxide (contains both aluminum and silicon). Sand is silicon dioxide (silica). DE is the fossilized shells of prehistoric freshwater and marine organisms and is primaily silicon dioxide(silica) with a smaller amount of aluminum dioxide and other minerals present. All three are mined. Non of them biodegrade. All of them can be mixed into your garden but all they are basically a form of sand (silica).
4. The reduced labor and maint. hours should add up to some value.
remains to be seen. With the necessity of 'recharging' the zeolite yearly (for chlorine pools) with an acidic brine solution it might be more labor than sand.
5. Zeolite is renewable. When the filtration qualities diminish you recharge the medium with a salt solution.
Zeolites main advantage is the ability to adsorb (not absorb!) ammonia compounds. It has been used for aquarium filtraton for this reason for many years. It acts like an ion exchange resin in your water softener and is functioning as a chemical and not mechanical filter medium in this respect by trapping ammonium ions. When it cannot adsorb any more it can be regenerated with an acidic brine solution (concentrated salt solution and acid). As far as cleaning it of particulate matter (mechanical filtration) that is what backwashing does so it is no different than sand here. Plus you have the added step of 'recharging it yearly and have the brine solution to dispose of....good way to kill the grass!
It is "supposed" to outlast sand many times over. Our neighbor has a never ending sand pile as he replaces it every year (softswim user).
Can't compare biguind (SoftSwim) to chlorine here. Even on the Zeobrite website they recommend cleaning the zeolite medium MONTHY with the above cleaning solution when using bigiunide. The makers of the various biguinde systems (Baquacil, SoftSwim, Revacil) also recommend monthy cleaning of sand when used with their systems and yearly reppplacement. Seems like it's exactly the same. It will still probably require yearly replacement (or perhaps more often) just like sand since since biguinide gunks up and ruins filter material and the 'pores in the zeolite will certainly get gunked up fast.
6. I don't think a cost of $40.00 for a 50lb bag is all that expensive comparied to the per ounce per pound cost of other pool chemical products.
We needed 175 lbs for a total cost of $160.00 with some left over.
Sand at $6/50 lb bag would have cost you $24. Even if you paid a premium price of $12/50 lb bag of sand that is still less than $50 total! Think of all the bleach you could have bought with the left over $100-$125 dollars!

Just some things to consider.

Just a few more things to consider!

[brent.roberts]

Comments have been made in this thread that you can reduce the number of times backwashing is required.

Think about this. Your systems starts up and your skimmer collects a handfull of dead and drowning insects. Earthworms fall into the pool and settle out on the bottom and get sucked into the bottom drain. A lb. of pollen drifts onto the surface and is sucked into the skimmer. A bunch of swimmers jump in an dead skin sloughs off. Some feces are washed out the swim trunks. Hair, grass etc.
You all know the routine. ( or should )

So it goes into you filter and is filtered out. Out of what ? Out of sight and nothing more.
And that's where it ends until you flush it out with a backwash. All that junk from March, ... it's now July, is still in your pool water. In fact much of it is force fed pool water while ever the pump is running.

4 month old dead rotting earthworms ... still in the pool water. Just out of sight.

Now if you're real good about your chlorine and CC levels, it is eventually going to be oxodized. But any bit of a slip up in your routine and you have be saving up all this stuff to make a biological time bomb.

I think it is foolhardy to leave that junk in you system and think you are smart by saving 5 minutes to backwash and a hundred gallons of water.

Just my opinion. Comments and critique invited.

[gerri]

I'm also a big believer in backwashing. I don't mind having to re-add the DE or replace some water and sequestering agent. I just think it's a much cleaner pool when the filter material is as clean as it can be. I don't have a bottom drain though so my worms and stuff get emptied when I vac.

[sevver]

I backwash every time I vacuum. Before I do it I fill the pool til it is a bit high then vac, then backwash. I have an 18' pool, and it gets low when I BW if I don't fill it up first sometimes.

[CarlD]

If your pool is clear, your FC and CC are fine, you don't keep having drastic chlorine drops, then the detritus in your filter is past rotting and you needn't worry about it.
Backwash when the pressure goes up. If it's once a week or once a month, so be it.

However, if you DO get an infested sand filter (very rare, but I know someone who had one) it's cheaper and easier to just replace the sand. At $5 for 50 # it's not pricey.

[The Raddish]

Here's a question. My new Pentair Dynamo 3/4 Hp two speed pump is being delivered today. I plan on running the pump on the low speed setting for about 12 hours a day (turning off at night), and only using the high speed setting for vacuuming, running the fountain when we have guests, and during high bather load.

So, if/when I add DE to the filter, do I add to 1lb increase on the low setting, or the high setting? I'm assuming that I add to a 1lb increase on the low setting, but wouldn't that equate to more than 1lb when it is on high?

[CarlD]

Absolutely add the DE when running on high. Do not do it on low. The pressure may well be too high if you add it on low.

I have a two speed and use the DE and always add it when the filter's on high--it's easy because I backwash on high and I add the DE right after I backwash.

[brent.roberts]

If your pool is clear, your FC and CC are fine, you don't keep having drastic chlorine drops, then the detritus in your filter is past rotting and you needn't worry about it.
Backwash when the pressure goes up. If it's once a week or once a month, so be it.

However, if you DO get an infested sand filter (very rare, but I know someone who had one) it's cheaper and easier to just replace the sand. At $5 for 50 # it's not pricey.

Carl
I'm not sure the idea that the stuff in the filter is past rotting is valid. Last summer I got a new DE filter. The dealer did not supply the multiport valve so I could not backwash. The instructions, as usual said to backwash after noting a pressure rise. After 2 month my pressure only went up 1 1/2 lbs so according to the bood, it didn't need a backwash. But I decided to open it up and hose it off anyway.

I was astonished at the amount of cr@p on the DE. The smell was horrendous. The pool water still showed negligable CC and the FC was held pretty steady at about 5 PPM so it looked OK externally.
But inside YEAUKKKKK.

Next cycle I opened it up again after 1 month. Virutually the same mess. The chlorine does not really break down the stuff in the filter the way I expected it to. Now I clean the filter every two weeks. The blankety blank dealer still has not send the backwash vales so I still do it the hard way. But I won't every leave it for a month or two.

Try taking a 5 gallon pail and catch some of the backwash water about a minute after the flow is reversed. Pretty disgusting.

[waterbear]

Carl
I'm not sure the idea that the stuff in the filter is past rotting is valid. Last summer I got a new DE filter. The dealer did not supply the multiport valve so I could not backwash. The instructions, as usual said to backwash after noting a pressure rise. After 2 month my pressure only went up 1 1/2 lbs so according to the bood, it didn't need a backwash. But I decided to open it up and hose it off anyway.

I was astonished at the amount of cr@p on the DE. The smell was horrendous. The pool water still showed negligable CC and the FC was held pretty steady at about 5 PPM so it looked OK externally.
But inside YEAUKKKKK.

Next cycle I opened it up again after 1 month. Virutually the same mess. The chlorine does not really break down the stuff in the filter the way I expected it to. Now I clean the filter every two weeks. The blankety blank dealer still has not send the backwash vales so I still do it the hard way. But I won't every leave it for a month or two.

Try taking a 5 gallon pail and catch some of the backwash water about a minute after the flow is reversed. Pretty disgusting.

You are actually better off breaking the filter down instead of backwashing it. I have posted my reasoning for it in other threads so I will not go thru it again but in a nutshell you really don't know how much DE is washed out so you really don't know how much DE to add. Also, backwashing forces dirty water backwards through the grids. You know that if you run a DE filter, even for a short time, without DE the grids can get clogged. IMHO, the same can happen when the water goes through them backwards.