Pool store advice to lower alkalinity - three day muriatic acid dose method

[CarlD]

The language of Ben's description is misleading. He's having you add acid continuously because he's ASSUMING you are aerating constantly, which will drive pH up continuously.

The lower levels of pH he prescribes will make the process move much more quickly, but are for a plaster or concrete pool...NEVER run your pH below 6.9 in a vinyl pool.

The process I laid out is not really any different than Ben's. It is a little simpler to understand and implement but it relies on the same underlying chemestry: Lowering pH pulls Alk down, and aerating raises pH without raiser Alk.

I and the other moderators and other experienced posters had the benefit of working with Ben's method and refining it. The ratcheting mechanism is a clearer way of doing the same thing. You SEE Alk fall with each subsequent dosing to lower pH. You SEE pH rise from aeration without raising Alk.

It's not as obvious that this is happening in Ben's description, but it it is. It is the same chemistry at work. They are not contradictory to each other.

[aquarium]

I did the aeration method for a few days using a sump pump and by turning the return nozzles up, just to see what would happen. The alk dropped from 220 to 170 but then hung there, using lots of acid in the meanwhile to keep the pH down. It's a plaster pool and the fill water is 235ppm alk, so it's a losing battle. There's no evidence of scaling so I'm going to leave it. From keeping aquariums I've learned, don't fight the water if you don't have to.

It's a shame I had to turn the nozzles back down, we sorta liked the water effects.

[waterbear]

Carl's method is EXACTLY the same as Ben's! It will take a bit longer to lower the alk this way but it is easier for a beginner to do since it involves less testing and ajusting. It is also much safer if you have a vinyl liner pool! The chemistry behind it is identical for each! If you understand Ben's procedure then by all means follow it but be warned that it is much harder to accomplish than the way Carl describes. Both ways will have the same effect. One will just take a bit longer since by lowering the pH then aeriting you will remove some of the excess alk and then you lower the pH again and repeat until you finally get the alk in line. By keeping the pH low and aerating and monitoring the alk you will procede faster but you will need to be testing pH several times a day and adding acid to keep the pH down while you aerate and also you need to monitor the alk once or twice a day!

[KurtV]

Carl's method is EXACTLY the same as Ben's!

I'm sorry, but there's is no way you can describe those procedures as being exactly the same. Please look at the quotes I emphasized in each procedure in my above post.

It will take a bit longer to lower the alk this way but it is easier for a beginner to do since it involves less testing and ajusting.

Seems like that would be so.

It is also much safer if you have a vinyl liner pool!

Only if you're not being vigilant about keeping the pH above the lowest level your test will measure.

The chemistry behind it is identical for each!

Agreed, that but that doesn't make the procedures the same. Maybe I'm being overly pedantic, but Ben warns very specifically and vigorously against deviating from his procedures. I understand the process at the layman level and most who will employ it probably do too, but I think there is a substantial risk of confusing those who are less than thorough with their research by advocating procedures that are demonstrably different.

If you understand Ben's procedure then by all means follow it but be warned that it is much harder to accomplish than the way Carl describes.

I don't see what's particularly harder about it other than it requires a bit more testing.

Both ways will have the same effect. One will just take a bit longer since by lowering the pH then aeriting you will remove some of the excess alk and then you lower the pH again and repeat until you finally get the alk in line. By keeping the pH low and aerating and monitoring the alk you will procede faster but you will need to be testing pH several times a day and adding acid to keep the pH down while you aerate and also you need to monitor the alk once or twice a day!

Again, not particularly difficult; frequent testing is something that's often advocated here.

Again, I'm not trying to be pedantic or argumentative but I think there's a substantial risk of confusing the new pool user/maintainer here. Maybe Carl's method is better/simpler/easier to understand/more fool proof/etc., but I think you all underestimate the capacity of the newbie to pick and choose the steps of the procedures they find appealing and end up making a real mess of things.

[CarlD]

IMHO, you are nit-picking and I don't see anything constructive coming out of this.

I leave it to Ben to come forward and correct me if I have deviated from his procedure in any SUBSTANTIVE way. I have no qualms with him correcting any incorrect assertions I make.

Ben warns people not to deviate from his procedure because a RANDOM deviation, without understanding what is going on, will result in your alk not being lowered.

We have discussed and advised the ratcheting method many times as a revised version of Ben's original method.

Whether you think his method is simple or difficult is simply from your perspective, not from mine which includes lots of questions from our members. If you don't find it difficult, all power to you, but for those who do, I will continue to recommend the ratcheting method.

Ben's breakthrough was to completely discredit ALL the pool store methods for lowering alkalinity as nothing more than bad chemistry and to propose a method that is based on the actual chemistry of pH and alkalinity, a method that can and does predictably work.

The ratcheting method is NOTHING MORE than a refinement of Ben's breakthrough method, relying completely on the same good chemistry he pioneered.

It's nothing more than that.....

And this thread is closed!

If you wish to continue this discussion you may start a thread in the China Shop--that's where we can argue with greater lattitude.