New Pool Questions

[md_rider]

Carl: The kit I got was the HTH 5 way test kit. It was $12.87 at Wal-Mart. Seems like a decent kit. After adding the shock last night, I measured the chlorine level this morning and it was reading about 5ppm (just using the quick test strip method, had to get the pool brushed before heading to work).

Should I start trying to raise the pH and TA along with the chlorine? I am a little confused about the pH reading being so low. I thought the pH should rise as the plaster cures. Or is the 5 gallons of acid originally added doing its job?

Thanks everyone for your inputs. I've only had water for 5 days and you all have already been a big help.

[waterbear]

No need to add calcium to a vinyl pool...ever. Unless, of course, you feel the need to be charitable to your local pool store and buy useless stuff to keep them in business.
There might be under certain conditions such as if you have very soft water and you have a heater. (my fill water has 0ppm CH) but it's not something to lose a lot of sleep over.
As mentioned, a good way to add calcium is by using Cal-Hypo to chlorinate. Look for 63% or more effective Chlorine--you won't find it in HTH products anymore--they are less than 50%-- but some of the pool stores private label it. Like Sun Pools in NJ here has a private label 63% Cal-hypo.
Good point!
If you can STILL find the WalMart HTH 5-way kit, GREAT! It was the VW Beetle of good test kits--$15 gets you most of the tests you need, only the chlorine test is limited to 5ppm max. But, with the CarlD ShotGlass method you can get readings to 15 or 20ppm. Simply mix a shot glass of pool water with a shot glass of steam-distilled water and you double the scale (to 10ppm). with 2 shots of distilled to 1 pool you triple it, etc. but you lose accuracy.
My local walmart (N. FL.) is stocked full of them. bought one about 2 months ago just to check it out. It certainly is better than test strips but I would still recommend getting a decent kit like Ben's or Taylor's or LaMotte's. Much easier to use and read on the tests and they will also test FC which the walmart (Aquachem) won't since it is OTO based. Oh yeah, it cost me $16.95!
Unfortunately, Arch Chems seems to have decided that such a useful kit is too much information in a home-owner's hands and is now pushing "6-way" test strips. I haven't seen the 5-way in the local WalMarts in 2 years--and it was the only reason I go to Wally-world.

CarlD, I have a question about the 'shot glass method'. Is that 'shaked or stirred'? (yes, I once worked as a bartender in college)

[KurtV]

MD, I'd be hesitant to adjust calcium hardness and alkalinity as your builder may be doing a high-acid startup on your pool. Depending on the finish (pebble, plain plaster, exposed quartz, etc.) there may be specific manufacturers requirements that you can muck up (the DiamondBrite high-acid startup, for example, requires a TA of zero). You don't want to void any warranty you might have (and some contractors will use any excuse, no matter how bogus, to do just that). I recommend that you talk to your builder and or plasterer before doing much of anything with the water chemistry.

[CarlD]

Not bad advice to check with the builder so you don't violate the warranty.

However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range.

If pH is low, you want it to be above 6.9...Unless there's something the builder insists on, but I'm not familiar enough with the startup chemistry of gunite/plaster pools. The calcium leeching out of the new walls raises pH. That's why Tri-Chlor tabs are great for new gunite pools--they lower pH and fight the tendency of pH to rise in the new pool. And they add CYA (stabilizer) which you need--assuming the builder didn't dump a ton of CYA in to start. If he didn't the tabs are great because they add CYA slowly, but keep a constant chlorine level in the mean time via floater or inline chlorinator. When CYA hits your target, and pH is under control, then you can rely on bleach or an SWG. If calcium is low, you'll need to add it seperately.

Cal-Hypo is good for new gunite pools if calcium is low as it will raise the calcium level. In that case, you'll need to add muriatic acid for pH and CYA to get to the right stabilizer level as necessary.

Shaken or stirred? Why that depends on what you mix it in! But use it ONLY for the Chlorine test, not the others.

If you can find a separate FAS-DPD test kit (Leslie's sometimes has them for $20) you are all set. However, while the 5-way kit is a bargain, it just still isn't as good as Ben's kit--and not just for the chlorine tests.

[mwsmith2]

I have a question about the 'shot glass method'. Is that 'shaked or stirred'?

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that!

Michael

[KurtV]

Carl said: "However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range."

Carl, At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that's not necessarily true for new pools; especially with regard to alkalinity in high-acid start-ups of exposed aggregate/quartz finishes. In those cases you want the water to eat some of the plaster (which will also increase your calcium hardness, I think).

[PoolDoc]

The *RIGHT* way to start up, or cure, plaster pools . . .

. . . is something I wish I knew, but I don't.

There are multiple methods, all of which have (as best I can tell) 'worked' some of the time, and all of which seem also to have 'failed' some of the time.

This is an area of huge dispute in the pool industry, with some confusing research of varying quality being brought into play. Everybody who's studying this -- and plaster is one of the few areas of pool construction and operation that is being seriously studied in public -- has an axe to grind, and knows what they really, REALLY WANT to find. Some of them are still trustworthy, I think, but it makes it tough to fit all the bits of research together.

The bottom line?

I do NOT know the best way to start up plaster pools. There are plenty of people who are entirely sure that THEY do know, but the evidence is too confusing, and to contradictory to warrant any such confidence. As is said of other disputes, this is one where's there more heat than light!

There are a few things that seem to be held by all, or at least held by some and rejected by none:

When starting or 'curing' a newly plastered pool . . .
+ Brush a lot, and don't let stuff build up.
+ Avoid high alkalinity (> 160 ppm)
+ Avoid metals, even if you plan to use a ionizer later.
+ Avoid adding lots of salt, even if you plan to use a salt chlorinator later.

Beyond that, you probably had best go with what your contractor requires of you, in order to maintain your warranty on his work.

One suggestion that I'd make is that you get -- demand, if necessary -- all the conditions he expects, in order to maintain your warranty. Then, make a log sheet and DOCUMENT your compliance with his requirements. This won't prevent all problems, but it should help prevent, or at least minimize, some of the many disputes over whether the problem was caused by the pool owners failure to maintain pool chemistry.

Ben

[waterbear]

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that!

Michael

actually, I KNEW that. was just being a smart---! Shouldn't have much effect on a Cl test however. I'll go back to my dark corner now!

[CarlD]

I know you are joking around, but if you shake your sample, you will reduce the Alk, because you are aerating the water and driving off CO2. It will also change your pH somewhat. Betcha didn't expect that!

Michael

Nope. Didn't expect it. Didn't care either--still don't 'cuz it don't matter.

You ONLY use the shot-glass method for testing chlorine, not for testing Alk or pH. Or, for that matter, CYA, Ch, or TDS (a fav piece of BS pool stores test).

Actually, I also use the shot glass method for drinking old rum, like St.James 1979--but I leave out the distilled water and (of course) the pool water!

(and shaken, not stirred, has to do with the ice. If you shake it, you cool the drink down faster with less dilution from the ice than if you stir it. A stirred drink will be more watery and not as cold--and I didn't even have to pretend to be "Bond, James Bond" to figure that out!)

[CarlD]

Carl said: "However, Gunite pools should keep a calcium level of 200-400--no more or less, and a T/A of 80 or 90 to 125. You don't want to be out of that range."

Carl, At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that's not necessarily true for new pools; especially with regard to alkalinity in high-acid start-ups of exposed aggregate/quartz finishes. In those cases you want the water to eat some of the plaster (which will also increase your calcium hardness, I think).

I would defer to the builder to avoid voiding the warranty, and I am not an expert on plaster pools--Ben is FAR more knowledgable but these are the general rules of thumb. You seem to be as well.