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Thread: Ben's Phosphate Project

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    Quote Originally Posted by JimK View Post
    So I take it HEDP users just have to maintain a high FC/CYA ratio?
    Whats the HEDP in there for Jim? If it's for iron, then it's better removed than sequestered as HEDP is at odds with chlorine as the chlorine tries to oxidise it out.

    And a note on closing the pool as Richard mentioned it. With the very clean low nutrient water my pool is put away in early September with water temperature around 14-16 deg C (57-60 F) and not opened up again until the end of May or early June. The winter cover is a heavy grade dark (light obscuring) cover and the water is clear when uncovered. I usually give a little shock 24 hours before removing the covers.
    Passivpool Energy A++ rated pool, the most efficient in the world! 24ft x 12ft, 12000 gallons I/G vinyl lined pool, variable speed pump 0.08hp,(30-60 watts) running 24/7. AFM glass media 24" sand filter, Strantrol chemical injection

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    Quote Originally Posted by JimK View Post
    So I take it HEDP users just have to maintain a high FC/CYA ratio?
    As teapot notes, using HEDP for at least the bulk of the iron doesn't make a lot of sense since it precipitates so readily when exposed to chlorine. Now it is true that if you've got a sequestrant in the water then any additional iron or excessive copper (or manganese) can be trapped by the HEDP and prevent staining so it's mostly in pools using well water where there's evaporation and refill so a constant introduction of more metal.

    There are other non-HEDP metal sequestrants, but some aren't so good such as EDTA since the chlorine demand is much higher (chlorine oxidizes EDTA faster than HEDP) but there are some polymer based sequestrants that won't break down into phosphates. An example is Jack's Magic The Magenta Stuff which uses an acrylic copolymer. Just note that this product will be incompatible with most clarifier products since the acrylic copolymer is negatively charged (to bind positively charged metal ions) while most clarifiers are positively charged (to attract negative cell surfaces). Having both in a pool creates a cloudy mess though it will get filtered out (I suppose it's a way of removing the products from the pool).

    So using chlorine alone to prevent algae growth by maintaining the higher FC/CYA ratio is certainly simpler in that you don't have to worry about chemical incompatibilities (well, you still do if you mix certain other chemicals, but there's less to worry about). By the way, it's not that phosphate removers and HEDP are directly incompatible -- nothing bad happens when you have both in the water. It's just that chlorine breakdown of HEDP adds phosphates at a rate that requires use of more phosphate remover so this can get more expensive, defeating the purpose of saving money from using less chlorine. You could certainly test your phosphate level and see how it climbs over time. If it's slow enough, then it could still be economical to use a phosphate remover. Again, this is why this is not the mainline approach -- it takes more care and understanding.
    15.5'x32' rectangle 16K gal IG concrete pool; 12.5% chlorinating liquid by hand; Jandy CL340 cartridge filter; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; 8hrs; Taylor K-2006 and TFTestkits TF-100; utility water; summer: automatic; winter: automatic; ; PF:7.5

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    I just had the crazy thought of a way of physically removing the metal ions from the water. Ben has previously described how to use something like Cal-Hypo or pH Up in the skimmer to create conditions that precipitate metal oxides onto the filter, but what if one used a polymer metal sequestrant that bound the metal and then later used a polymer clarifier which would then combine with most of the sequestrant and precipitate both in the filter? If the sequestrant didn't have most of its sites bound with metal, then it's possible this could be a way to remove the metal from the pool.

    There are some metal sequestrant products that claim to sort of work in this way in that they claim to get caught in the filter once bound with sufficient metal presumably because they become less soluble. So maybe a clarifier would make this process more efficient.

    The downside is that dosing too much of either just wastes money precipitating each without much metal.
    15.5'x32' rectangle 16K gal IG concrete pool; 12.5% chlorinating liquid by hand; Jandy CL340 cartridge filter; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; 8hrs; Taylor K-2006 and TFTestkits TF-100; utility water; summer: automatic; winter: automatic; ; PF:7.5

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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    I am not sure that I understand the process you are describing, as I am not a chemist... If you could give step-by-step directions (even if they are best-guesses), maybe JimK would be willing to give it a go????

    BTW, Ben held my hand through the cal-hypo method of eliminating iron from my water. It worked a treat. I have NO iron problems, but having iron-rich well water, I need to be VERY mindful of the weather so that I can get my refills from rainwater.
    26K gal 20x40 rectangular IG vinyl pool; Apr 2014: New pump, liner, auto-cover, & water; Pentair Whisperflo 1HP pump; Pentair Trition sand filter; Cover/Star CS-500 auto cover; Taylor K-2006C; OTO

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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek View Post
    I just had the crazy thought of a way of physically removing the metal ions from the water....
    I LOVE crazy thoughts. Keep thinking, chem geek!

    Being able to reduce/eliminate metals would help SO many people!
    26K gal 20x40 rectangular IG vinyl pool; Apr 2014: New pump, liner, auto-cover, & water; Pentair Whisperflo 1HP pump; Pentair Trition sand filter; Cover/Star CS-500 auto cover; Taylor K-2006C; OTO

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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    1) Fill pool from well that has iron or other metal needed to be removed.
    2) Before adding significant chlorine, add a polymeric (non-HEDP) metal sequestrant such as Jack's Magic The Magenta Stuff
    3) After waiting a bit (and optionally slowly bringing up the chlorine level to normal levels, with CYA in the water), slowly add a polymeric clarifier such as GLB Clear Blue to the skimmer.
    4) If the water turns cloudy, filter 24/7 until clear.

    If there is then a way to test for the amount of metal sequestrant left in the water, then do so. Then check the filter and if you see a lot of yellow/red staining on the filter, then you've probably removed most of the iron. Clean/backwash the filter and this should wash away.

    If Ben's technique worked reliably, then there's probably not a need for another, but it'd be good to know there's another alternative that could work.
    15.5'x32' rectangle 16K gal IG concrete pool; 12.5% chlorinating liquid by hand; Jandy CL340 cartridge filter; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; 8hrs; Taylor K-2006 and TFTestkits TF-100; utility water; summer: automatic; winter: automatic; ; PF:7.5

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    You bet it would be good!

    Your method is for newly filled pools. What about a pool that is already has balanced FC/CYA chlorine levels? (Like JimK's?)
    26K gal 20x40 rectangular IG vinyl pool; Apr 2014: New pump, liner, auto-cover, & water; Pentair Whisperflo 1HP pump; Pentair Trition sand filter; Cover/Star CS-500 auto cover; Taylor K-2006C; OTO

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    Since he has an HEDP metal sequestrant, the technique does not apply. So it would only be if one were using a polymeric metal sequestrant.
    15.5'x32' rectangle 16K gal IG concrete pool; 12.5% chlorinating liquid by hand; Jandy CL340 cartridge filter; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; 8hrs; Taylor K-2006 and TFTestkits TF-100; utility water; summer: automatic; winter: automatic; ; PF:7.5

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    I am having a difficult time finding a polymeric metal sequestrant. Do you have any brand names?
    26K gal 20x40 rectangular IG vinyl pool; Apr 2014: New pump, liner, auto-cover, & water; Pentair Whisperflo 1HP pump; Pentair Trition sand filter; Cover/Star CS-500 auto cover; Taylor K-2006C; OTO

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Ben's Phosphate Project

    Jack's Magic The Magenta Stuff where its MSDS indicates that it contains Acrylic Acid Copolymer. Note that Jack's Magic The Pink Stuff, The Blue Stuff, and The Purple Stuff are all HEDP as are the majority of metal sequestrants used in pools.

    Natural Chemistry Scale Free is not phosphate-based (i.e. not HEDP), but their MSDS for Scale Free does not list the ingredients and the pH isn't high so it might not be a polymeric acid.

    Natural Pool Products Naturally Free metal & stain control based on their MSDS is probably a phosphate-free polymeric acid given the high pH.
    15.5'x32' rectangle 16K gal IG concrete pool; 12.5% chlorinating liquid by hand; Jandy CL340 cartridge filter; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; 8hrs; Taylor K-2006 and TFTestkits TF-100; utility water; summer: automatic; winter: automatic; ; PF:7.5

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