My Leak Story, etc.

[butterflyblue]

I posted here last year with some of my pool issues, so am posting again with a follow-up and questions. Last year, I had cleaned my Hayward cartridge filter for the first time by myself. So far, so good. Turned the pump on and apparently a "clog" had developed, maybe some debris was sucked into a line. Pool guy came out and shot C02 into the skimmer and the jandy valve to clear the clog. After a couple of days, the clog finally cleared. However, at that time, I noticed the level in the pool dropping after a couple of days which was abnormal. Did bucket test. Pool okay when pump not running, but lost water when pump running.

Various pool forums and advisors had said maybe the Jandy valve was leaking and that was the cause of the lowered level. There are no visible leaks in the pool equipment above ground. I just got off the phone with a fairly well respected pool company in my area and they told me that from what I am describing, it almost has to be an underground pipe leak, and NOT a valve that is causing the pool to lose water when the pump is on. They said that if the jandy were at fault, I would be able to see the water leaking from it above ground.

I asked if there was a hole or some internal problem inside with the jandy valve that is causing this. They said NO.
They said that even if there was a hole or other problem inside the valve, it would still merely send water from the pool to the spa and around as it's designed to do.....there wouldn't be a water loss in the pool from that. I explored the valve issue a bit more, because I didn't and don't want to jump to the conclusion that it's an underground pipe for obvious reasons (big money needed to fix). Any thoughts on this? He refused to come out and look at the valve just to make sure that it wasn't at fault for the pool level going down when the pump was on. He gave me the name of a leak detection company based on the information I gave him on the phone.

I'm just wary of being pushed into a leak detection situation when it could be a simple valve issue. The pool guy kept saying, "if water is dropping in the pool, it's going somewhere....it's going into the ground at some point in the pipe system." So, any thoughts or further advice on this before I call leak detection? This is such a bummer. All I did was clean my own filter, turn on the equipment...........bam, it developed a clog.........got it unclogged when C02 was blown in........then all this developed. I'm just so bummed that a simple thing on my part apparently set off this chain reaction of problems. Any ideas? Thanks!

[SunnyOptimism]

First off, the guy blowing pressurized CO2 into your lines is ... well .... i have no polite words for that. PVC piping is not meant to handle highly pressurized gases, it's designed for low pressure water flow. So anytime you "blow out" your lines, you should always start off with a garden hose and a FlowKing hose bladder. Using pressurized gas is a method of last resort and the person doing that should be experienced with it.

With the above said, I do tend to agree with the pool companies you've contacted. If the leak were above ground and in a valve or fitting somewhere, you'd be able to see it, especially a water leak causing significant water loss in your pool volume. Chances are you have a fitting in an underground PVC line or somewhere near the pool that is leaking water when the pump is running and the system is at-pressure. It is totally plausible that zero water pressure (pump off) would not cause a leak but running the pump does. The thing leaking could easily self-seal at low pressure and then open up when the system is running. I've seen this happen a lot in other situations I have been in where there is pressurized water (I used to be an equipment engineer).

With all that said, I would definitely be getting quotes from leak detection companies. There are many such companies here in the southwest, and it's not a huge cost to have them come out and do a full inspection of the plumbing system. I've known people in my neck of the woods who have had leak detection done on their irrigation systems because their water bills were hundreds of dollars a month only to find that they had a broken 1/2" feeder line at 25psi shooting gallons of water out when the drip system was activated. The money saved in finding the leak more than paid for the service. As well, for you, even if they don't find anything, at least you have peace of mind that your pipes are good.

Sorry to hear about your troubles! You did the right the thing trying to clean out your own filter, I really think the guy that blew the CO2 into your lines screwed it up.

[butterflyblue]

First off, the guy blowing pressurized CO2 into your lines is ... well .... i have no polite words for that. PVC piping is not meant to handle highly pressurized gases, it's designed for low pressure water flow. So anytime you "blow out" your lines, you should always start off with a garden hose and a FlowKing hose bladder. Using pressurized gas is a method of last resort and the person doing that should be experienced with it.

With the above said, I do tend to agree with the pool companies you've contacted. If the leak were above ground and in a valve or fitting somewhere, you'd be able to see it, especially a water leak causing significant water loss in your pool volume. Chances are you have a fitting in an underground PVC line or somewhere near the pool that is leaking water when the pump is running and the system is at-pressure. It is totally plausible that zero water pressure (pump off) would not cause a leak but running the pump does. The thing leaking could easily self-seal at low pressure and then open up when the system is running. I've seen this happen a lot in other situations I have been in where there is pressurized water (I used to be an equipment engineer).

With all that said, I would definitely be getting quotes from leak detection companies. There are many such companies here in the southwest, and it's not a huge cost to have them come out and do a full inspection of the plumbing system. I've known people in my neck of the woods who have had leak detection done on their irrigation systems because their water bills were hundreds of dollars a month only to find that they had a broken 1/2" feeder line at 25psi shooting gallons of water out when the drip system was activated. The money saved in finding the leak more than paid for the service. As well, for you, even if they don't find anything, at least you have peace of mind that your pipes are good.

Sorry to hear about your troubles! You did the right the thing trying to clean out your own filter, I really think the guy that blew the CO2 into your lines screwed it up.

Thanks so much for your reply, very appreciated. This whole thing has been so weird, from start to finish. When the pool guy came out to unclog the clog, he may have used a bladder in the beginning, and I think that failed to dislodge it. Then he used a higher power force....and THAT also failed to unlodge it at the time. He said maybe some debris was hung up in a joint that made a sharp turn or something. He left and the next day I turned the Jandy valve in different ports, to sort of get the water flowing back and forth, and that was finally what unclogged it. I don't necessarily blame the pool guy for using his higher powered device, because he was really trying to get it unclogged, and ultimately, he never did (I did). Mine being an older pool, perhaps it couldn't take that type of blast and something has come unjointed in a pipe. (also, he didn't charge me for his efforts, he worked for a solid hour to try to get it unclogged and since he was unsuccessful, he was a decent person and didn't charge).

Unfortunately, thereafter it was a case of losing water which as you seem to also feel, it's probably an underground pipe. Whether his blowing out process caused it, who knows? I had felt so proud of myself to teach myself how to disassemble the filter, clean it and learn how to maintain it better throughout the year (we have a lot of pine needles hanging over the pool, so it gets a lot of debris). and then to have this domino effect with the clog at the very instant I turned the pump back on after cleaning the filter, (weird!), and then the water leakage/loss, has been really disheartening.

The pool guy I talked to this morning referred me to a leak detection guy and indicated it usually costs about $200 to do the basic detection or pressure testing. That seems to be about what most companies charge for a basic testing of lines in my area. I agree, it is peace of mind to at least narrow it down and find out if a pipe is leaking. Then take it from there. I hardly use the pool at all and almost feel like draining it at this point. Just spent $120 to have a gasket seal fixed on the pump where it was visually leaking (I wanted to take care of all visual leaks before anything else). If it's gonna end up costing a lot to dig up concrete or whatever might be needed, I may call it a day on this pool. But your advice is well taken, it's not that expensive to have the initial leak test of pipes done. Thanks again for your input! (I guess when some repair forums suggest a Jandy valve might be at fault, they mean if there is visible leakage from that area, not some interior flap or area that is losing water inside the valve that's not actually visible). I had been hoping a valve was at fault, but since there is no visible water leaking around the valve, I think that pretty much eliminates that hopeful possibility.

[SunnyOptimism]

I understand how you feel. And I'm glad the original pool guy did the right thing by not charging you. If he did use a garden hose and bladder at first then at least he understood the dangers of pressurizing PVC with gas. I sincerely doubt that your efforts caused the leak, but perhaps a combination of events has lead you to where you are.

Pools (like any other part of real estate) do become a money pit over time. Anyone with an "old" house knows what it's like to have to constantly repair failing infrastructure year-in and year-out. It would be sad if you drained your pool and just had an open pit in the backyard. In fact, you might not want to do that as draining a pool can also cause damage that would then make your home more expensive to sell in the future. Tearing out a pool and backfilling the hole is expensive as well (~$10k-$15k in some areas) so your best bet may be just to keep it running as best you can until the day comes when you're ready to sell and move on.

Hopefully you'll find the leak and it will be something simple to fix. I'll keep my virtual fingers crossed for you...good luck!

[nefretrameses]

Check out www.leaktools.com. You can read about how leak detection works, repairs, etc. I bought my own set of tools to test my own lines. I think the high pressure broke something, maybe not right away, but jiggling the valve may have caused a "water hammer" that finished the job. If you are losing significant amounts of water, it's got to be going somewhere. If you can't see it, it's going into the ground somewhere. Good luck.

[butterflyblue]

I understand how you feel. And I'm glad the original pool guy did the right thing by not charging you. If he did use a garden hose and bladder at first then at least he understood the dangers of pressurizing PVC with gas. I sincerely doubt that your efforts caused the leak, but perhaps a combination of events has lead you to where you are.

Pools (like any other part of real estate) do become a money pit over time. Anyone with an "old" house knows what it's like to have to constantly repair failing infrastructure year-in and year-out. It would be sad if you drained your pool and just had an open pit in the backyard. In fact, you might not want to do that as draining a pool can also cause damage that would then make your home more expensive to sell in the future. Tearing out a pool and backfilling the hole is expensive as well (~$10k-$15k in some areas) so your best bet may be just to keep it running as best you can until the day comes when you're ready to sell and move on.

Hopefully you'll find the leak and it will be something simple to fix. I'll keep my virtual fingers crossed for you...good luck!

Thanks so much for your supportive words. I think I'd be more "okay" with all this if I didn't feel that I, somehow, contributed to it. But the other pool guy said he also didn't see how anything I had done could have caused the clog (that's the big mystery of all this, how the clog could have related to the filter cleaning in some way). There is a cracked manifold in the bottom area of the filter, but he said that would have nothing to do with the water loss/leakage in the pool and is a relatively minor repair that he felt I could do any time. The filter canister itself is tight, no leaks, looks fine. I have to just accept that somehow or other, something happened, and I'll have to get it dealt with.

Thanks also for your input about draining the pool. I tend to feel you are right on that. If/when I sell, if the pool were empty, I'd fill it for sale, as it certainly looks beautiful when clean and sparkling and is a selling point. There's nothing uglier than an empty pool in a backyard. Also, I don't want to spend big $$ for a cover which would need to be done to keep tons of pine needles and other debris out of it. And then the cover would need cleaning and maintenance. If empty, to refill the pool would be very expensive in my area due to water rates (and also the major drought, I'm in NV) So, I'll probably just keep it up best I can.
I will follow up and let you know what happens and to help others with leak issues and pass along whatever I do learn. Thanks for the positive thoughts!

[butterflyblue]

Check out www.leaktools.com. You can read about how leak detection works, repairs, etc. I bought my own set of tools to test my own lines. I think the high pressure broke something, maybe not right away, but jiggling the valve may have caused a "water hammer" that finished the job. If you are losing significant amounts of water, it's got to be going somewhere. If you can't see it, it's going into the ground somewhere. Good luck.

Thanks so much, I will definitely take a look at leaktools. I wish I could test my own lines, I just don't have the expertise or knowledge to do so. Yep, maybe the valve jiggling contributed and whatever had potentially been semi- damaged by the high pressure was then broken fully by water hammer. A series of unexpected bad luck problems. I agree, if I can't see the water, it's going somewhere and that somewhere has to be into the ground. I see no wet spots around the pool itself. I can only run the pump about two days, 4-5 hrs, and then it's down to the skimmer and sucking air and I have to add water. It's not a HUGE amount of water, but clearly, a leak somewhere. I'll update on what happens!

[SunnyOptimism]

Thanks so much, I will definitely take a look at leaktools. I wish I could test my own lines, I just don't have the expertise or knowledge to do so. Yep, maybe the valve jiggling contributed and whatever had potentially been semi- damaged by the high pressure was then broken fully by water hammer. A series of unexpected bad luck problems. I agree, if I can't see the water, it's going somewhere and that somewhere has to be into the ground. I see no wet spots around the pool itself. I can only run the pump about two days, 4-5 hrs, and then it's down to the skimmer and sucking air and I have to add water. It's not a HUGE amount of water, but clearly, a leak somewhere. I'll update on what happens!

Maybe you'll get lucky and the leak will be in the skimmer (although you'd likely see wet ground around the skimmer unless it's covered by a lot of decking). Skimmers are prone to spring all sorts of leaks with age.

Best of luck and definitely keep posting what you learn. Also post anything interesting you learn about leak detection. Posting is the best way to spread your knowledge to others....and no matter what, it's a huge help to the DIY pool community!!!

[butterflyblue]

As promised, I am checking back in with all of you to share the results of the leak detection on my pool. The company came out today and performed a leak detection and the good news is, there was no underground leak detected. The pressure gauge that he hooked up indicated a normal response, it held the pressure properly. So, the next step was to determine just why the pool level drops when the pump is on. Here's what he found: he noticed that the spa was in some state of disrepair with multiple tiles off in various areas. Upon further inspection, he noticed a crack in the concrete rim around the spa, where a lot of these tiles had fallen off, which he said was probably due to shifting. I, of course, had known about that crack but never put two and two together in my mind as to what connection it might have to losing water while the pump is on. I had not seen any loss of water in the spa with the pump off, so didn't feel th spa, itself was leaking. But as he explained it, when the pump is on and the water level rises in the spa, it rises to the level of that crack and the water goes out at that point, and thus causes the water loss while the pump is on.

That made perfect sense, and I agreed with him that I could definitely see how that could happen. He putyed up the crack as best he could while here (he did a dye test and noted several areas of leakage around those same tiles), so he didn't fully repair it during this visit, but said I could probably putty up the rest of it myself, injecting silicon into the areas and also putty. The charge was $285. Yes, a bit steep perhaps, but he is a very experienced person in business since 1976, full time with pools that entire time. so I felt it was important to get someone trustworthy to look at the problem.

So, I guess the moral of this story is: before you call a leak detection person out, make sure that any obvious signs of disrepair such as tiles falling off, areas of cracks, etc. are repaired, puttyied the best that you can. Leak detection can be expensive and you want to eliminate as much above ground as you can. Before calling him out, I had several leaks at the equipment pad fixed to eliminate those problems, but hadn't really given sufficient thought or attention to the areas he pointed out. (and hopefully fixed!) I hope my story has helped others in the same circumstances. Thanks again for this forum and all your helpful advice. I wlil always help out others if I can, also.

[FormerBromineUser]

Thank you for following up! Helpful stuff.