A picture is worth a thousand words . . .

[mbar]

Pam, I was wondering about your filter too. It seems not to be filtering too well - since there is no change in the appearance of the water no matter what. I am convinced now that it is algae - I think something is wrong with the filter, especially that there isn't much in the backwash. Your water seemed to be cleaner in the other photos after vacuuming to waste - if it was just the color of the water, there wouldn't be all of the stuff on the bottom of the pool. You really will have to dose the pool with acid. Yes, while aerating it, your ph will rise as your alkalinity lowers - but only when you get your ph as low as 7.0 - 7.2. So I don't think you have been doing anything, becuase the ph has never been low enough to lower the alkalinity - I hope you understand this - if you don't please ask, I will try to explain it better. I would ask in the pool construction and repair forum about what could be wrong with the filter. I was trying to find out the difference between chelating and sequestering the metals, but they both seem to do the same thing. I know the chelating copper algacides have the copper binding so that it doesn't fall out onto the pool, but so does the sequesterant. If someone else can explain it I would really appreciate it.

[waterbear]

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!! DO NOT TRY AND TEST OR AJUST YOUR pH WHEN THE CHLORINE LEVELS ARE ABOVE ABOUT 10 PPM. YOU WILL GET INTERFERANCE AND A FALSE HIGH pH READING. From two of your posts above:
CL 14-15
PH 8.0
and
CL 6.0
PH 7.8

Sorry for shouting like that! Here are my thoughts, I could be wrong.
The green color does look like copper, even with the sequesterant you might be oxidizing the copper with the high clorine levels. I think the stuff in the pool is dead algae now and the filter is not taking it out for some reason. What kind of filter do you have? You might want to make sure it is working properly. Is the pressure reading normal? If it is a sand filter you might have channeling in it. You can clean the sand if that is the case. If it is a sand filter you can also add a bit of DE to it (enought to raise the pressure 1psi) This can help it filter out the finer stuff. Try letting the chlorine drop to normal levels and hit it with a seqesterant again. Jack's Magic Blue Stuff is designed specifically for copper. You might want to try that and see if it clears the green. Get your chlorine and pH levels to where the bottle says before treating. If it works THEN lower your TA!

[mbar]

Waterbear, Pamsel had put in a lot of sequesterant, that is why I am having trouble thinking it is copper - although the first set of pictures she has here (the last two) the water looks clear green, which does look more like copper coloring the water. But she is losing chlorine fast, and the stuff in the last picture she posted looks more like algae than anything. My thought is that if she lowers the ph and alkalinity, the chlorine will be more effective in killing the algae, plus you know high chlorine levels and high chlorine are what make metals fall out of suspension - there doesn't seem to be any staining on the steps in the first set of pictures. This is a very confusing case - maybe you can help - you are great with the chemistry - what is the difference between a chelating product and a sequestering product? I also think there may be a filtering problem - because there isn't much coming out with the backwash - and the pressure is at 40, when it ususally is aroung 18. Could channeling be the problem? You can read Pamsels other posts in the metals forum, and maybe you have some ideas that can help. Thanks!

[Pamsel]

We replaced the sand last summer, so I've not been too concerned that the sand is junked up. But, it's probably worth taking a look. I'll have to have my husband get involved with opening the filter - that's a bit out of my league I think.

I went out tonight about 10:00 pm and could see stuff settled on the bottom, so swept the entire pool again and then added 4 gallons of CL to get it back up to shock level. Am waiting a couple of hours and then going to add more acid again. Then I'm going to bed and will see what it looks like in the morning!!

Edit - I typed the above message before seeing your posts, Marie and Evan. But I guess for now, I'll stay with the plan I posted, since I have already added the CL and it does seem important to get the PH down. I also stopped the aeration for now. My pressure guage is now above 45, but everything sounds normal out there - would there be any difference in the sound of the filter running if there's a real problem? Funny thing is that it was reading normal (18-20) this morning before I left for the day and when I came back this evening, it was over 30 and each time I check it, it's gone higher. Also, normally when I backwash, the pressure drops to 0 but tonight it stayed high, so I'm wondering if it's broken??

[waterbear]

Waterbear, Pamsel had put in a lot of sequesterant, that is why I am having trouble thinking it is copper - although the first set of pictures she has here (the last two) the water looks clear green, which does look more like copper coloring the water. But she is losing chlorine fast
Yes, during the day and she has very little CYA in the water...she said either 0 or 25 ppm! Her chlorine has been holding at night and burning off during the day!
, and the stuff in the last picture she posted looks more like algae than anything.
I suspect it is dead algae and for some reason her filter is not getting it out
My thought is that if she lowers the ph and alkalinity, the chlorine will be more effective in killing the algae, plus you know high chlorine levels and high chlorine are what make metals fall out of suspension - there doesn't seem to be any staining on the steps in the first set of pictures.
But she has put in a LOT of sequesterant!
This is a very confusing case - maybe you can help - you are great with the chemistry - what is the difference between a chelating product and a sequestering product?
From my understanding very little, It has to do with how it deactivates the metals. chelating agents have a heterocylic ring struture that forms a complete ring with the metals, sequestering agents form stable non reactive compounds with the metals but are not necessisarily in a ring structure. Chelating agents will sequester metals but not all sequesterants chelate. EDTA (reagent #3 in the CH test is a chelating agent. It chelates the calcium in the water and when there is non left to react with the indicator it changes color from pink to blue. The indicator itself is a chelating agent that forms a pink complex when metal are reacted with it and blue when there are non. EDTA is a stronger sequsterant than the calcon indicator so it will 'unhook' the calcium and other metals from the calcon and 'hook' it to itself Phosphonic acid derivatives are what is usuallly found in metal seqeusterants. This group of chemicals tends to create very stable compounds that are more resistant to temperature and ph effects than EDTA, Sequestering is a much broader description. Chelation is a specific type of sequestering. The terms tend to be used (incorrectly) interchangably. By the way, sequstering products are rated by their 'chelation value or ratio' ( how stable a compound they form)!
I also think there may be a filtering problem - because there isn't much coming out with the backwash - and the pressure is at 40, when it ususally is aroung 18. Could channeling be the problem?
Possibly, or maybe broken laterals in the filter. I think it's time for a complete filter breakdown and inspection, and sand cleaning or replacement.
You can read Pamsels other posts in the metals forum, and maybe you have some ideas that can help. Thanks!

Hope this clears things up. It's confused the heck out of me!

[Pamsel]

One thing, waterbear, my last CYA reading done at home, after the pool store test showed 0, was 40, which makes more sense to me since I did put 3.75# of granulated stabilizer in during the past two weeks.

I guess the next step is an inspection of the filter. I may need some guidance on that, but I'll get my husband involved here and see what he says.

[haze_1956]

I went out tonight about 10:00 pm and could see stuff settled on the bottom, so swept the entire pool again

The following should be done after you are sure the filter is working properly

If you can see stuff that has settled on the bottom, vacuum it up ! Don't sweep it back into suspension. And when you are done vacumming, leave the vacuum facing upward at the bottom of the pool. This will draw the dirtier water from the bottom through the hose instead of just the cleaner water from the top through the skimmer. Unused pools tend to filter the top water more (no bathers to mix it up). You were also aerating, which decreases mixing even more.

I also think that if the water isn't mixing well, there is a chance the algae at the bottom isn't getting high enough doses of CL to be killed.

I am suggesting this as I have seen no mention of the pool having a bottom drain.


.

[Pamsel]

When I said I swept the pool, I did mean that I vaccumed the pool. I'm not sure if you mean vacuum to waste when you say vacuum it up. I did not vacuum to waste, but did vacuum.

I do have a bottom drain and have the valve set 50/50 drain/skimmer. I have not ever left the vacuum facing upward in the bottom of the pool.

This morning my pressure guage had gone completely around and was spasming at 0 with a loud hum now. I turned off the filter and put a message on the construction repair forum.

What next??

[haze_1956]

Next step is to get the filter working properly. Without the filter the rest won't matter.

If the filter hasn't really been removing much, the sheer volume of organic matter may be too much for the CL to oxidize.

Keep going Pam, this pool must not defeat you. The honor of PoolForum rests on your shoulders. - (cue poolforum theme song)

Seriously Pam, I has been a long battle with no results so far, But you WILL get it cleared up. It's just chemistry and water filtration. Its a matter of finding out whats not working right, fixing that and back at it.

[Pamsel]

I dunno Haze. I'm ready to cover it back up and forget it's out there!.