Strange issue with Alkalinity and pH

[FormerBromineUser]

See our last posts, but also: I reread your OP and I think your question was about why they recommended 80-100 TA. Jim can correct me if I'm wrong since I know only a little about SWGs. I believe the SWG system causes a certain amount of aeration/out-gassing which lowers TA a bit over time.

[JimK]

If you really want to attack the TA issue, add baking soda in small quantities until you reach your goal or pH stabilizes. It will raise your pH some, so I still recommend lowering the pH first.

Jim has an interesting idea. When you get your pH and TA stable, adding borates has many benefits. The process of adding them is a roller coaster ride that swings your pH high with borax and low with MA, so I would recommend waiting for now.
Here is a link to the process: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...stant-to-Algae
If you decide to go for it, test part way through. I found that I reached 50ppm about half way through the recommended dosage.

If you use boric acid (I buy it online) instead of borax, you don't have to add acid. Boric acid will lower pH a little, but I've not found this to be an issue for me.

See our last posts, but also: I reread your OP and I think your question was about why they recommended 80-100 TA. Jim can correct me if I'm wrong since I know only a little about SWGs. I believe the SWG system causes a certain amount of aeration/out-gassing which lowers TA a bit over time.

I've not noticed an impact on TA running my SWCG. I wonder if the boric acid in the pool has a stabilizing effect here as well?

[Anonymous [GDPR] European in the UK]

This is of course chem geeks territory but as you have a pebbletec/plaster finish protecting that from degradation is important. You are trying to get the pH down a little too far and maybe better shooting for pH7.5-7.7 which could decrease the outgassing of Co2 and stabilise your pH better. going lower increases the outgassing giving a bigger pH rise especially if you have a chlorinator which produces hydrogen bubbles which tend to cause the pH to drift on its own.
TA acts as a buffer to pH both in the upward drift and downward drift adding borates may help yet further as does your CYA level. but the important calcium saturation index is influenced quicker by pH than alkalinity. 80-100 is the industry standard for plaster type finishes to supply sufficient carbonates to protect the surface.

[JimK]

This is of course chem geeks territory but as you have a pebbletec/plaster finish protecting that from degradation is important. You are trying to get the pH down a little too far and maybe better shooting for pH7.5-7.7 which could decrease the outgassing of Co2 and stabilise your pH better. going lower increases the outgassing giving a bigger pH rise especially if you have a chlorinator which produces hydrogen bubbles which tend to cause the pH to drift on its own.
TA acts as a buffer to pH both in the upward drift and downward drift adding borates may help yet further as does your CYA level. but the important calcium saturation index is influenced quicker by pH than alkalinity. 80-100 is the industry standard for plaster type finishes to supply sufficient carbonates to protect the surface.

Good post.

My only experience is with our vinyl liner pool, so I don't know much about taking care of other pool types.

[FormerBromineUser]

Glad you chimed in here, Teapot! Do you agree with the adding of baking soda after the pH comes down from 8+?

[chem geek]

TA is mostly a measure of the carbonates (especially bicarbonate) in the water and these not only buffer pH but are a SOURCE of rising pH in their own right due to carbon dioxide outgassing. Pools are intentionally over-carbonated to provide carbonate to protect plaster surfaces (calcium is added for this purpose as well since the water should be saturated with calcium carbonate). As shown in this chart, there is more outgassing at higher TA and at lower pH. The outgassing of carbon dioxide raises the pH with no change in TA. Adding acid lowers both pH and TA.

The extra aeration from an SWCG increases the rate of carbon dioxide and pH rise. If you have short pipe runs, then undissolved chlorine gas can also outgas and cause further pH rise. For an SWCG pool, the TA should be lower, usually closer to 70 ppm and certainly not as high as 100 ppm. The Borates provide additional pH buffering and are NOT a source of rising pH since they do not outgas. The borates do not change the amount of acid you add over time, but they slow the rate of pH rise down so you don't need to add acid as frequently. They also help to prevent calcium carbonate scaling in the SWCG cell since they roughly cut down the pH rise in half at the hydrogen gas generation plate.

[Anonymous [GDPR] European in the UK]

TA is mostly a measure of the carbonates (especially bicarbonate) in the water and these not only buffer pH but are a SOURCE of rising pH in their own right due to carbon dioxide outgassing. Pools are intentionally over-carbonated to provide carbonate to protect plaster surfaces (calcium is added for this purpose as well since the water should be saturated with calcium carbonate). As shown in this chart, there is more outgassing at higher TA and at lower pH. The outgassing of carbon dioxide raises the pH with no change in TA. Adding acid lowers both pH and TA.

The extra aeration from an SWCG increases the rate of carbon dioxide and pH rise. If you have short pipe runs, then undissolved chlorine gas can also outgas and cause further pH rise. For an SWCG pool, the TA should be lower, usually closer to 70 ppm and certainly not as high as 100 ppm. The Borates provide additional pH buffering and are NOT a source of rising pH since they do not outgas. The borates do not change the amount of acid you add over time, but they slow the rate of pH rise down so you don't need to add acid as frequently. They also help to prevent calcium carbonate scaling in the SWCG cell since they roughly cut down the pH rise in half at the hydrogen gas generation plate.

Better post!

It's strange in the pool industry that they don't differentiate between pool types, whilst the figures that are adopted are widespread they don't really seem to be needed for vinyl liners as the surface doesn't require calcium. Everyones water is different but I don't have fountains or water falls and borates aren't allowed in EU so I run my vinyl pool around a TA of 40 and that requires barely any acid additions and it's only the sodium hydroxide used to stabilise the liquid chlorine that has any effect. On another vinyl pool TA is around 22 (no fountains or water features) the calcium hardness is also very low at 50-60ppm and there is no pH bounce, just the normal behavior.
As Chemgeek says TA is also a source of out gassing. Using a lower TA allows me to run a slightly lower pH at 7.2-7.3 getting a bit more killing power from the chlorine therefore using less chlorine. Well that's the theory.

[Charlie]

Thanks everyone for all the detailed information. I checked the pool this afternoon, and got the following results using a Taylor K-2006:
Water temp: 71 F
FC: 7.0
CC: 0
pH: 8+
TA: 90
CH: 425
CYA: 80
Phosphate: 0
Salt: 2200
As you can see, the pH is back up to 8. Without adding borates, I'm going to work on keeping the TA at a lower level. chem geek suggested 70, so I'm going to shoot in that direction. It's probably going to take several weeks before the TA begins to drop due to adding liquid acid.

I'm also going to check it mid-week, say Wednesday, and report results again.

[Charlie]

Checked it today - Saturday.
pH: 7.8. I checked it on Monday, and it was 7.0. Climbs up pretty quick in a week. If I waited and checked it tomorrow Sunday, it may have been at 8 again.