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Thread: ozinator experience

  1. #11
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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    What changes would you want to make to this form / spreadsheet pair, to report your data?

    + I'd prefer direct chem adds, to SWCG use, since SWCG output is hard to quantify.

    + Can you send hi-res pool and gear pics to poolforum@gmail.com? Ozone injection point location will impact efficacy.

    + Unless you object, once we have a tentative plan, I'll ask Chem_Geek to take a look. He's much more knowledgeable about analytical chemistry than I, and can help us avoid overlooking some mistakes that would invalidate the results.

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    What changes would you want to make to this form / spreadsheet pair, to report your data?

    + I'd prefer direct chem adds, to SWCG use, since SWCG output is hard to quantify.
    I agree but I hesitate because I've never run the pool on direct chem add for more than a week or 2 so I don't know what to expect. My thought is I'll end up needing to run the test both ways because the air or ozone could be messing with the SWCG to make it look like I'm using less CL but all I'm doing is supercharging the SWCG output or something like that.

    May be drop the air only run and do

    1) SWCG + ozone
    2) SWCG only

    if we see something then go
    3) Direct add +ozone
    4) Direct add only

    maybe? We can always add runs to find out what's happening IF anything is happening. But if nothing happens under the conditions I thought I saw it working ......well then I was wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    + Can you send hi-res pool and gear pics to poolforum@gmail.com? Ozone injection point location will impact efficacy.
    Email with pics sent...let me know if you don't get it as it was pretty large.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    + Unless you object, once we have a tentative plan, I'll ask Chem_Geek to take a look. He's much more knowledgeable about analytical chemistry than I, and can help us avoid overlooking some mistakes that would invalidate the results.
    no problem. If we're going to the trouble to run the test lets make sure the results mean something when we're done

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    You could really only perform such a lab with identical pools with identical history side by side with no sources of shade tested by people who are blinded to the treatment group being evaluated.

    At this point in the season, I doubt you'll find much support for this experiment here. If the only benefit is reduced chlorine consumption I doubt that purchasing, installing and operating such a system could ever break-even with the cost of chlorine delivered as bleach. CC is really only a problem for outdoor pools when under chlorinated; interesting that the marketing of these systems encourage the users to do just that.

    I've tried to warn you that this device may be causing you to operate an unsanitary pool. Please don't let your family and friends get sick.
    There are several questions I guess
    1) does the thing do anything at all? This gets answered by setting up some kind of on/off testing but as you point out there are many factors that could confound the result. I deal with this issue in my day job (medical devices) all the time where there is no such thing as a "normal" person, nor duplicate people, nor a person who is exactly the same on any 2 days...and for most of the work we don't get to test on people at all for obvious reasons.

    The solution is to randomize and repeat until you can show the data is statistically significant. Here it might look like ozonator on/off/off/off/on/on or similar and see what we have. If the thing is reducing CL usage by at least 50% as the manufacture claims that should be pretty easy to spot after just a couple tries. Once I have some data I can plug it into minitab (statistical analyis software) and see if whatever we thing we see is real.

    2) If there is a real effect, is it worth the money? Once step 1 is complete and we have actual CL use numbers this is an easy calculation on $ saved and for many that's the end of it. For me personally anything that makes taking care of the pool easier has value so the CC numbers are more important to me personally or we can do a follow-on test to see if there is any time savings I guess but the first step needs to be answer question 1 on does it do actually do anything at all.

    3) What is the "right" FC level. The manufacture says to use 1-2.....now that may be only because by giving that recommendation they know people will reduce daily CL usage and they get to claim their unit did something just like all the silly things you can buy that claim to improve fuel mileage in your car but don't actually do anything at all helpful...the key is they all come with instructions which are nothing but general driving tips on how to improve mileage and if you follow them you will see improved mileage but if you don't you aren't using the device correctly and your results don't count....snake oil. This could be the game the oxonator people are up to and they justify the 1-2FC because it's within the publish acceptable range.

    I think I've read on this site that with a SWCG a FC of 2 is the min but maybe it's still to low....I have no idea. My current thought is is use FC 2 as the target for all this testing as its the top of manufacture's recommended range and the bottom of the PF range. Once the testing is done and the ozonator is officially in or out then I put some more effort into determining what the best nominal FC point should be for my pool.....does that make any sense or have I missed something important?

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Hi Mark;

    I'm very interested in pursuing this, but I can't spend much time on for at least a week, and maybe not until after July 4, when things start slacking off. But I have taken some preparatory steps.

    1. I've moved this to the "China Shop" section, which is were arguments and really technical threads go.

    2. I've re-activated an older tracking chart, and created a new one. Please enter your pool data here:
    http://pool9.net/pf-chart/

    And your daily test results, here:
    http://pool9.net/pf-hist-form/

    You can see what you've entered, here:
    http://pool9.net/pf-hist-chart/

    3. Once you've got your data entered, plus several days of results, post and let me know. I'll add the pictures, and get Chem_Geek involved, and see if we can come up with a method of confirming ozone generation.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Personally, I don't think you will be able to collect enough data to show statistical significance with any of the proposed test plans. I am, as a geek, quite interested in your experiment. I look forward to seeing your progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark e View Post
    ... I think I've read on this site that with a SWCG a FC of 2 is the min but maybe it's still to low....I have no idea. My current thought is is use FC 2 as the target for all this testing as its the top of manufacture's recommended range and the bottom of the PF range. Once the testing is done and the ozonator is officially in or out then I put some more effort into determining what the best nominal FC point should be for my pool.....does that make any sense or have I missed something important?
    FC of 2 with a CYA of 40 is as low as you should ever let it go and that's presuming continual chlorination with the SWCG. Please choose a more reasonable FC target, espcially if you manually chlorinate(the only way you'll know how much chlorine goes in) for the experiment. The ozonator is not really validated if chlorine is saved is at the expense of periods of unsanitary pool water.

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    I'll be out of town next week so can't start until I get back. Today I'll order an new test kit (Taylor K-2006A) and clean the filter cartridges so I know there's nothing weird going on and I'm ready to start next weekend when I get back.

    The data will only apply to my specific pool unless someone replicates it on another pool, but at least I'll know for sure whether or not I've been wasting my money keep the ozonator working all these years.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Sounds good to me. Post a notice when you get back and get started.

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post

    + I'd prefer direct chem adds, to SWCG use, since SWCG output is hard to quantify.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark e View Post
    I agree but I hesitate because I've never run the pool on direct chem add for more than a week or 2 so I don't know what to expect. My thought is I'll end up needing to run the test both ways because the air or ozone could be messing with the SWCG to make it look like I'm using less CL but all I'm doing is supercharging the SWCG output or something like that.
    I pondered this a bit more and I still want to START with the SWCG because that is the only way I have any experience running the pool and what all my observations at the start of the thread are based on....but I also want to know how much CL is going in......I have deck jets on the return so I'm thinking I can just turn them and pull a water sample there and just test the CL level.

    A high setting on the SWCG should mean more CL in the return and I can test that separately to make sure that's what happens....and then we have the CL info to go with the SWCG setting.

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    Default Re: ozinator experience

    Sounds reasonable to me.

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