Bromine Chemistry Question

[CarlD]

Let me clarify some things.

1. Hardly anything is "out" with the BBB method. Carl's due credit for coming up with a convenient and easy-to-remember name for the approach to pool chemistry I've taught, but there are times I wish he'd thought of a different name. The problem is, it tends to fix people's minds too tightly on a limited set of chemicals. The fact is, I'm not against ANY chemical . . . used with a good reason.

Sorry! Too late for that, Ben! Too many years, too many people and sites have picked up on it....I wanted a catchy memory-jogger, not a rigid "This way or the highway" and didn't include acid or stabilizer in it...BBBAS (Bee-Bee-Bass) sounds weird and complicated.
I, too, use what's right at the time--and sometimes what I've got in the shed so I don't have to go running.

2. Polyquat allows you to keep your pool from going green, while the chlorine is low.

3. When you've got metals in the water, you need to keep the chlorine low, to avoid 'dropping them out' and causing stains.

4. But, EVENTUALLY, you have to do just that: the cal hypo is for the purpose of helping you 'drop them out' on the filter (and on the calcium particles on the filter, from the cal hypo.)

Basically, what you're trying to do, is get your pool up and running smoothly via HEDP, polyquat, low-ish pH, and low-ish chlorine. Once you've done so, THEN you can switch to removing metals without staining things much, using gradually rising pH, gradually rising chlorine . . . and precipitation ONTO the filter, via cal hypo.

Unfortunately, managing metals remains complicated. I haven't come up with, or seen, a simple method for doing so. We'd hoped this product would do so:

1.5 ppm CuLator pack
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner

We've been disappointed, because though it works, it works too slowly to be a one-step solution. It *is* useful as an ongoing preventative. If you get one, get the skimmer socks, too. These keep it from being quickly contaminated with 'pool goo'. CuLator says you should change these monthly -- and you should, if your goal is to improve CuLator's quarterly statement! Otherwise, you only need to change it when it's heavily discolored (from captured metals) OR gummed up with goo.


Does this clear up any of your questions?

Metal-clearing seems to be THE most difficult aspect of pool chemistry, other than conversion from something to Chlorine.

[FormerBromineUser]

I have a bunch of questions about all that but for now I need to get back to the TA issue...
Here's what I did. I added 3/4G of MA, waited 4 hours, got a pH of 7.1ish and added 1 more quart of MA (and 3/4C of diclor). After an hour, I turned on my 2 fountains and the step swirling jets and then went to bed. In the morning my results were:
pH 7.4
FC 3.6
CC 0.6
TA 200, then 180, then 200
CH 90
I freaked out and took a sample into Leslie's.
They agreed with the pH but they said TA was 150, yesterday afternoon they had 170 so they think the acid and aeration is working. But, I returned home to retest TA and I got 200 again. I don't know who is right or wrong on these numbers. I even purchased fresh TA reagents the other day because my numbers weren't agreeing. I will continue with lowering my TA per directions but I don't know which numbers to trust here. I'm thinking Leslie's as I had TA at 200 before the gallon of acid and I still have TA of 200 and the acid MUST have done something....!

[BigDave]

When you do the TA test, are you swirling the sample after every drop? For me, when I'm getting close to the TA reading I see a red spot where a drop goes in that goes back to all green after swirl. Next couple drops the sample turns a silver / gray color after swirling. One or two more drops and the sample stays red.

[FormerBromineUser]

Yes, and my color changes are the same as yours. If I run the test twice in a row, I have to admit the second time I add 5, swirl, add 5 swirl, add 5 swirl, then drop by drop. I just ran it again, drop by drop, and it is 200. Drat, I don't know what the problem is. I just tested the pH also, 1-1/2 hours after adding 3/4G MA, and it is down to 7.0. I will let MA circulate a half hour more and then aerate again. When pH comes up I will test TA again.

[PoolDoc]

I wouldn't focus too much on exactly what it is: every test agrees that it's somewhat too high. Just lower your pH to around 7.0, and maintain it there, till the TA is closer to 120. If you can't get a stable reading then, we can wrestle that problem, at that time.

[CarlD]

Remember:
Vinyl pool
pH 7.4
CH 90
T/A tests at 150, 180, or 200.

Unless your pH is consistently trending upwards, it's just not that big a problem. Yeah, fixing is probably a good idea, but it's not going to cause your pool to go cloudy or scale metal, not with your CH so low.

If CH was 400 or 500, or you had to keep add MA to control pH, then you'd have a problem.

[FormerBromineUser]

Okay, I am comfy waiting for this long process to finish.... I am just concerned about how to know when I reach 110-120 TA if my tests are off. pH has already risen from 7.0 to 7.2 in 3 hours. (I added a slight splash from the slide too). Looks like more MA tonight! I will keep an eye on the FC with the pool open and CYA<30, and add more dichlor tonight if FC drops to around 2.
And by the way, Carl, I have never in 8+ years had to raise my pH; I always have to lower it. That may have been my old bromine pool-store treated water, but also may have something to do with my fill well-water.

[FormerBromineUser]

BTW, while waiting for my pH to rise.... I tried to find a place to purchase HEDP (as an alternative to the CuLator) and came across this blurb about HEDP adding phosphates to water. http://blog.intheswim.com/phosphate-...tion-in-pools/

[CarlD]

Okay, I am comfy waiting for this long process to finish.... I am just concerned about how to know when I reach 110-120 TA if my tests are off. pH has already risen from 7.0 to 7.2 in 3 hours. (I added a slight splash from the slide too). Looks like more MA tonight! I will keep an eye on the FC with the pool open and CYA<30, and add more dichlor tonight if FC drops to around 2.
And by the way, Carl, I have never in 8+ years had to raise my pH; I always have to lower it. That may have been my old bromine pool-store treated water, but also may have something to do with my fill well-water.

Generally, if you find your pH is always rising and you have to lower it, you sho0uld lower TA to anywhere from 60 to 80. If you find it's always falling, you'd want to raise your T/A till it stabilizes.

[PoolDoc]

As Carl suggested, the numbers are less important than they sometimes seem. On a vinyl pool, if your water is clear, and your pH is not too low, and you aren't adding copper . . . you're not going to damage your pool.

The Taylor TA test is probably the most accurate one you have access to -- so if you are using it correctly, those are the results you should trust. But there is room for 'operator error' any time you do a titration, whether it's with a glass buret and an Erlenmyer flask, or with a 100 mL plastic tube and 3 dropper bottles. If you want to be SURE you're doing it right, check out these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...99CY_BQXE1Jx6s
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...-ZRW_OFLP4jNO4

But honestly, if you'll just relax a bit, things will be easier, and you'll get better at the details.

One absolutely key point: no pool EVER runs exactly by the book. The real world is always more complicated than the 'rules', and if you try to make the two sync up perfectly, you'll go nuts. Twenty-five years ago, we were told that the IgE levels found on my then 3 year old son were impossible: if he REALLY had those levels, he'd be confined to an allergy bubble in Arizona. But, those levels were confirmed with subsequent testing, and yet he's never been confined, though I did give him allergy shots for 7 years. Twenty years ago, my pastor was told that his cholesterol levels were close to the highest ever reported, and that he should plan for a short life expectancy. He's still alive, though he did have to have a bypass 3 years ago.

Bottom line: no set of tests, even with multi-million dollar equipment, will fully describe what happens in YOUR pool. But, with practice, you can get 'close enough' with the Taylor K2006. And that's really all you need.