Bromine Chemistry Question

[JimK]

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

I switched to using boric acid last year. Much more convenient and I don't have to deal with handling MA.

Btw, I don't know how much adding borates has to do with this, but I noticed that since lowering my TA to 70-80, my pH settles at 7.5 to 7.6 with the SWCG running and doesn't rise any higher. I didn't have to add any MA all last season nor so far this season.

[chem geek]

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

[JimK]

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

Thanks for the explanation.

Its been nice not having to mess with adding MA. Of course it was following advice on this forum that lead to finding my pool's sweet spot.

[FormerBromineUser]

I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

The hubby loved it when I added optimizer to our former water and is convinced borates will be the answer now. I don't plan on telling him what you said about borates probably not making a difference and just see what his reaction is when he next goes in. I will let you know what he says!

And to you also, JimK, I wish now that I hadn't stocked up on MA before reading Richard's and your posts about granular boric acid. (At $1.99/G, it was hard not to... my Menard's now raised their price now to $3.57 -still a deal). I found the process of adding borax and MA to be the pits. I would have loved to avoid that!

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for. I will keep an eye on it and see if my reading changes for any reason. I thought I was done reading test strips. Ugh!

Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired (effects) on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

I was keeping the auto-cover closed a ton trying to warm up the water. If it ever gets sunny, I will open it up. Thanks for the info; I didn't realize that UV radiation had an effect on breaking down bad stuff. Always learning here on the forum!

[PoolDoc]

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for.

Most owner-reported pool volumes are high. Liner volumes supplied by builders and liner makers are for the OVERFLOW volume, not the actual in-pool water.

[FormerBromineUser]

.
Good point. I thought about that too....

When I originally figured my volume I used: 20x40 rectangle with an average 5' 8" (5.66') depth (3.2" shallow, 8.3" deep) to get around 33K.

Then, when we filled this year, I had 4 truck loads of water brought in. One truck supposedly held 5.9K, the other 5.8K. That's almost 24K total. Then I added over a foot with my hose which I calculate added another ~6,000+G. (20x40x1=800ft3=5,948G=~6K) 24K+6K=30K That put me at a revised 30K figure.

Do you think the corner bump-outs (see avatar) can account for that big of a difference? Am I doing something else incorrectly?

[PoolDoc]

Inset corners -- 3' 90 deg radius x 4 => 3^2 * 3.14 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 700 gallon deduct
Steps: 1/2(4' inset * 2.8 deep) * 6 wide * 7.46 = 250 gallon add

Shallow part of pool: 20 * 40 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 19,098 gallons add
Deep part of pool: 20 * 20 * [(8.3 - 3.2)/2] * 7.46 = 7,610 gallons
[Probably should be [(8.3 - 3.2)/3] -- but it depends on the shape of the slope and hopper ]

19098 + 7610 + 250 - 700 = 26,258 total

[FormerBromineUser]

Thanks for the calculations! My kid, a physics major, promises to get an accurate measure of the deep end as soon as he has time. Kids.

PoolGeek: Guess what??? My husband swam for the first time last night after the addition of borates and he says his hair and skin are MUCH better! His hair (what's left of it... tee-hee) was soft, not sticky. His skin, not overly dry or sticky. He said there is a definite difference! He said he loves the "feel" of the water now. Hmmmm.

I am wondering, though, even with a pool of 26K, why it only took 18 boxes of Borax to get my borates over 50 (it still looks to me to be closer to 80). The "recipe" in http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...stant-to-Algae calls for 10 boxes per 10K. Is there any other test you can run for borates that is more accurate and not cost prohibitive? I'm really puzzled.

[PoolDoc]

1. It looks like I may have an error there; I'm going to have to check because 2 info sources, aren't in agreement.

2. BUT, how were you testing? If it was the AquaChek . . . they are pretty much unreadable. Test some tap water with known borates (0.0) and see what you get.

[chem geek]

It's 7-3/4 boxes (76 ounces weight each) of 20 Mule Team Borax per 10,000 gallons for 50 ppm Borates. To balance the pH, this requires 282 fluid ounces (35-1/4 cups or 2.2 gallons) of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid). You usually alternate adding back and forth so that you don't have the pH swing too wildly.

I'm glad the feel of the Borates are working out. I think the main effect is a reduction of surface tension and/or a surfactant effect and that may make the hair not stick together as much and the skin feel a little more silky, but quite frankly the effects aren't noticed by everyone and I'm suspicious that some of it isn't just the placebo effect.