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Thread: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

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    Default Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    (Possible duplicate post. My login apparently timed out while I was drafting this, and the post might have been lost. Luckily I had copied the draft to my PC.)

    This is a restart/recap of a thread from last year. (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...-And-Or-Piping) I've digested what folks told me last year, and done some additional research, and now understand that I need to replace my pump (probably with a smaller motor on the existing pump or possibly a variable speed motor or pump) and that there is probably no point in upsizing my above-ground plumbing.

    I would appreciate thoughts and recommendations on a replacement pump motor or complete pump replacement.

    ** 15,000 gallon inground pool
    ** Equipment pad is 3-4 feet above water level.
    ** Water feature is approximately 3 feet above water level.
    ** All plumbing, including inground, is 1.5 inch.
    ** A *single* 1.5 inch pipe that splits underground to two returns.
    ** A 1.5 inch pipe to the water feature, with the valve normally only half open.
    ** Hayward Super Pump, 2-speed, 1.5 HP. 14-15 years old, but motor rebuilt last year.
    ** The pool is not closed in winter.
    ** (Additional details below.)

    When we bought the house, the pump worked fine on low speed for filtering the pool and running the water feature, although performance of the (Rainbow) chlorinator was marginal in summer. High speed was used for vacuuming.

    I added a heat pump that had to be located 30 feet away from the equipment pad (60 ft. total piping run). There is a 3-valve heater bypass at the equipment pad.

    With the heater in the circuit, low speed can no longer run the chlorinator or the water feature. With the heater bypassed, low speed works as it used to.

    My workaround last year was to reverse the pump wires at the (mechanical) timer during spring/summer/fall swimming season and have the timer turn the pump on and off at high speed. This is wasting large amounts of electricity. In winter, with the heater bypassed, I put the wires back in their normal configuration and the timer turns the pump on and off at low speed.

    My options appear to be:

    ** Keep existing pump and continue to swap wires with the seasons (or wire in a crossover switch).
    ** Replace pump with a variable speed/variable flow model. (Even with the 1.5 HP Hayward Super Pump VS and Max-Flo VS models that are designed for 1.5 inch piping, this is probably not cost effective with electricity costing approximately $0.10/kWh before taxes and fees.)
    ** Replace pump motor with a variable speed unit. (Also probably not cost effective.)
    ** Replace pump motor (and impeller) with a 1 HP, 2-speed unit and continue to swap wires with the seasons (or wire in a crossover switch).
    ** Replace pump motor (and impeller) with a single-speed unit. (I'm hoping that somebody can figure out the total head in my system so that I can pick the correct size motor. If a 1 HP motor is called for, then I might go with a 1 HP, 2-speed unit and save on electricity in the winter.)
    ** Add a 2-speed pump timer to the existing (or new) 2-speed pump. Run at high speed during swimming season for filtration/heater/water feature/chlorinator. Run at low speed during swimming season for filtration/heater. Run at low speed during winter for filtration/water feature/chlorinator.
    ** Install Blue-White flowmeter to insure sufficient turns.

    (Note - The 1.5 HP variable speed motor and controller used in the Hayward Super Pump VS and Max-Flo VS pumps is going to be available as a replacement motor in the next month or two from A.O. Smith/Century, but the price is unknown and the programming functionality of the controller is poor. It either has to be run 7x24 alternating between two speeds or used with an external timer to start a single sequence of two speeds. (The two speeds could be the same, and reprogrammed seasonally. This would allow multiple start-stops during the day using an external timer with the speed optimized to the seasonal configuration.) Hayward has a 1.85 HP unit with a more robust controller in testing, but the release date is unknown.)

    Details:

    Note - All valves are 2 inch with reducing couplers
    Note - New multiport valve and pressure gauge on filter
    Note - Waste/rinse/backwash pipe from filter is approx. 10 ft. of 1.5 inch flex with 1x 90

    Suction side
    ** From skimmer1 through and including manifold - est. 84 ft., 2x 45's, 4x 90's, unknown underground configuration
    ** From skimmer2 through and including manifold - est. 36 ft., 2x 45's, 4x 90's, unknown underground configuration
    ** From main drain through and including manifold - est. 45 ft., 2x 45's, 2x 90's, unknown underground configuration
    ** From manifold to pump - 2x 90's

    Pressure side
    ** From pump to filter - 1x 90
    ** Filter - Tagelus TA-60, 24", zeolite media
    ** From filter through and including heater bypass - 4x 90's
    ** From heater bypass to heat pump and then back to and through heater bypass - 3x 90's, 4x 45's, approximately 30 feet to heat pump and back
    ** From heater bypass to (but not including) manifold - 1x 90, Jandy check valve, unused Nature2 cartridge holder, Rainbow chlorinator
    ** From manifold to returns - Single 1.5 inch pipe, 4x 90's, unknown underground configuration, splits underground to two returns with 3/4" eyeballs
    ** From manifold to water feature - at least 5x 90's (valve usually only partly open)

    Backpressure readings (High speed / low speed, water feature turned off)
    ** Filter set to waste - 8-9 lbs / na
    ** Filter set to rinse - 14-15 lbs / na
    ** Filter set to backwash - 15-16 lbs / na
    ** Filter set to recirculate and heat pump bypassed - 17.5 lbs / 3.5 lbs
    ** Filter set to filter and heat pump bypassed - 20 lbs / 4.5 lbs (normal winter operation)
    ** Filter set to recirculate and heat pump in circuit - 22.5 lbs / 5.5 lbs
    ** Filter set to filter and heat pump in circuit - 23 lbs / 5.5 lbs (normal spring/summer/fall operation)
    ** No change in backpressure with flapper in Jandy check valve removed

    I probably need to replace the pump or pump motor, but is there any chance that increasing the size of the 60 ft. of piping from the heater bypass to the heat pump to 2 inches would yield robust filtering performance and a functioning water feature with the existing pump running at low speed? As noted above, the cholorinator performance was marginal in summer before the heater was added.

    To recap:

    ** I would greatly appreciate it if somebody could calculate the total head of my system so that I can correctly size a replacement pump or pump motor.
    ** I would appreciate any thoughts and recommendations on my options (or options that I haven't thought of).

    My sincere thanks in advance.
    15K gal IG pool; 13 yr old 2spd 1.5HP Hayward SuperPump w/ rebuild motor; 24" Tagelus TA-60 filter w/ zeolite media ; heat pump; chlorinator.
    Pump located ~4 ft abv water level; water features ~3 ft above water level; all plumbing 1.5"

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    First, you really don't need total head to size a pump. What drives the pump size is the flow rates requirement for things other than the pool itself. Examples, are spa jets and waterfalls. If the pool is the only consideration, you can go as small as you want. But if you are interested in doing the calculations, I have a few tools in the link in my sig labeled "Energy Efficient Swimming Pools".

    Since you have a water feature, downsizing the pump will affect the look of the waterfall. But since you have the valve half open, I guess that is not really a problem either.

    But one thing to consider is that the Superpump line is a great pump and they are all up rated and a little smaller than the label would indicate. So you have a 1.5 HP up rated pump that is similar in strength to a 3/4 HP full rated pump like a Super II or Tri-Star or Whisperflo. The Superpumps tend to be smaller pumps than a standard pump which is good news because that means it will use less energy than a typical 3/4 HP full rated pump.

    If the only issue is that you have to switch the wires to go from high speed to low speed, I would keep your old pump and just get a two speed timer.

    http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-PE1...wo+speed+timer
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    I'm sorry to be so slow in acknowledging your response. I didn't get an e-mail notification of the response (not sure if this site does that), and I just wandered back to this post as I'm ramping up to start attacking this issue.

    I lucked into a flowmeter at a good price, and I'll be installing it in the next few days. That will give me an idea of existing flow rates, high/low, with/without heat pump. I'll probably go ahead and calculate the head. It will also take me several days to digest all the good information on your Energy Efficient Swimming Pools site.

    If anything challenging comes out of this additional research, I'll post again to this thread.

    Thanks!
    15K gal IG pool; 13 yr old 2spd 1.5HP Hayward SuperPump w/ rebuild motor; 24" Tagelus TA-60 filter w/ zeolite media ; heat pump; chlorinator.
    Pump located ~4 ft abv water level; water features ~3 ft above water level; all plumbing 1.5"

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    Let me know if you need any help but have you considered downsizing just the impeller? It is fairly easy and cheap to do and it effectively makes the pump "smaller". You can keep the old motor.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    Since when is the Superpump an up-rated series? I thought it was full-rated as most IG pumps are.
    Carl

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    I believe Superpumps have always been up rated as far as I know. And the split between up rated and full rated for in-ground pools is about 50/50. Nearly every IG pump line has an up rated version and some pump lines have only up rated versions. Few pump lines, if any, have only full rated so the full rated versions are probably more rare although I think I see about 50/50 on the forums.

    Also, AG pools are nearly always up rated and sometimes double up rated.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    Would downsizing the impeller reduce the motor's current draw or just reduce the flow? If there is a reduction in current draw, would it be proportional to the reduction in flow? Would this reduce the flow at low speed below what is usable/worthwhile? (Repeat note - I'll be installing a flow meter in a few days.)
    15K gal IG pool; 13 yr old 2spd 1.5HP Hayward SuperPump w/ rebuild motor; 24" Tagelus TA-60 filter w/ zeolite media ; heat pump; chlorinator.
    Pump located ~4 ft abv water level; water features ~3 ft above water level; all plumbing 1.5"

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    A reduction in the impeller size reduces both the flow rate and motor's energy consumption. The impeller is the load for the motor. A smaller impeller is a smaller load so the motor does not need as much energy to spin the impeller and energy consumption drops. The energy factor as measured by gallons pumped per watt-hr consumed is higher with a smaller impeller so the energy efficiency is better. So yes, a smaller impeller is worth it especially since it costs much much less than a new pump. Usually the impeller and seal can be had for less than $50.

    http://www.amazon.com/Hayward-Series.../dp/B0037V0S3S

    I hate to sound like a broken record but your current flow rate is irrelevant. If you are interested in reducing energy consumption all you need is a smaller impeller and/or pump. A two speed motor just adds another level of energy efficiency.

    BTW, I kind of lost track of what your primary objective. I know you are having issues with the system but can you recap what your objective is with this whole thing?
    Last edited by mas985; 04-29-2013 at 11:03 AM.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    I'm finally back to this thread. Had a fun few weeks with a stain treatment and other get-ready-for-summer games.

    My goal is to see if there is/are modification(s) to my system that will reduce electricity consumption with no more than a 2 to 3 year payback while maintaining sanitation, clarity, water feature functionality, etc.

    I just got the flowmeter installed. Readings are:

    ** Pump on high speed, heat pump bypassed (winter) - 60 gpm, 4.2 hours/turn
    ** Pump on high speed, heat pump in circuit (summer) - 40 gpm, 6.25 hours/turn
    ** Pump on low speed, heat pump bypassed (winter) - 20 gpm, 12.5 hours/turn
    ** Pump on low speed, heat pump in circuit (summer) - too low to measure, below 20 gpm

    An updated list of options that I can think of or that were suggested is:

    ** Keep existing pump and continue to swap wires with the seasons
    ** Keep existing pump, downsize impeller and continue to swap wires with the seasons
    ** Add a 2-speed pump timer to the existing (or new) 2-speed pump. Run at high speed during swimming season for filtration/heater/water feature/chlorinator. Run at low speed during swimming season for filtration/heater (chlorinator won't work). Run at low speed during winter for filtration/water feature/chlorinator.
    ** Replace pump with a variable speed/variable flow model. (Even with the 1.5 HP Hayward Super Pump VS and Max-Flo VS models that are designed for 1.5 inch piping, this is probably not cost effective with electricity costing approximately $0.10/kWh before taxes and fees.)
    ** Replace pump motor with a variable speed unit. (Also probably not cost effective.)
    ** Replace pump motor (and impeller) with a 1 HP, 2-speed unit and continue to swap wires with the seasons (or add two-speed timer).
    ** Replace pump motor (and impeller) with a single-speed unit.

    Based on the current flow readings, would a downsized impeller reduce the flow to where I wouldn't get enough turns and/or (in summer, with a two-speed pump timer) the heat pump would not come on at low speed? In winter, at low speed could I end up with not enough flow/pressure to operate the chlorinator and/or water feature?

    Thanks again.
    15K gal IG pool; 13 yr old 2spd 1.5HP Hayward SuperPump w/ rebuild motor; 24" Tagelus TA-60 filter w/ zeolite media ; heat pump; chlorinator.
    Pump located ~4 ft abv water level; water features ~3 ft above water level; all plumbing 1.5"

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    Default Re: Recommendations For Replacement Pump Or Pump Motor (1.5" Piping, High Head)

    First, # of turns really doesn't mean much. Just run the pump for as long as necessary to remove the debris out of the pool and to add sufficient chlorine. Those are the only things that matter. Usually a pool can get clean in as little as 3 hours independent of flow rate and turnover. The biggest energy saver can be to simply reduce run time.

    Next biggest reduction in energy consumption comes from running on low speed. Generally, that will save 50% in energy costs with doubling of run time. But sometimes you don't need to double run time so you can save even more. Water features might be an issue but why run them unless you are using the pool. The chlorinator should not be an issue although you may need to make some adjustments. The heat pump may or may not work on low speed but you can try it can't you?

    A VS improves energy efficiency slightly more but usually it is not enough to justify the extra cost of the pump.

    It think you should either get a toggle switch for the pump or a two speed timer. That is all you really need.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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